Bufford Terrel was Gordon Kahl's attorney in Texas who along with his uncle represented Gordon at his original wilful failure to file income tax returns trial: These transcripts are notes we used in the editing of Death & Taxes. For effeciency we did not transcribe the interviewer questions. You will have to extrapolate that yourselve. (Or, I suppose if you are interested we could make a VHS video copy of the entire interview, this would cost you about $75)

These transcripts are being made available for those who want to go much, much further into the life and times of Gordon Kahl...

BUFORD#14

TAPE #14

00/50

I'm buford Terrel ...starting in 1970 I had a solo practise in Lubbock TX and I was sharing offices with my Uncle...

02/00 as I read Bitter Harvest I was struck by the invetiablility of it all. It was almost like a Greek drama where it had to play itself out

BUFORD#14

03/08 ...he was probaly the most resolute person as I've ever met...

3/25 ...at that time I had been practising 3 to 4 years. he , my uncle had some tax clients...he got invovled with the tax revolt group...

04/00 so when Gordon was indicted down in Midland...the nat. taxpayers union suggested he come and talk with my uncle...so Gordon came down with a bunch of taxpayers and we met and it went from there. ...

04/47 he was a very hard man to get to know.. at the first meetintg there were several other people invloved and GK had less to say than any of them...I thought he might be a tool of these other people...as time went on I could see he was a whole lot more solid character than that...

05/40 ...actually I heard of Posse C. for the first time while talking to GK...I think one of the things we discussed was whether he should wear one of the hangman's noose in his lapel during the trial...as a trial lawyer I didn't want that... I

06/15 and for the first time ran into IRS agentys who wore firearms and insisted on going in pairs because of claimed threats by the Posse...

06/36 it struck me as one of his strange ideas on taxes...he had what to me was a very incorrect view of medieval history as the posse as a law enforcement body. to me at the time it was his rather strange view of the Constitution than it was an active group he was invovled with...

07/30 GK's attitude, I'm not sure he ever thought he'd be indicted. I felt like at the time that he thought he was too small for them to be messing with...he really wanted to win the case in court... I felt like Gk really felt he deserved a an acquital...he seemed very willing to take my suggestions on trial strategy... even to he decided not to testify because the govt. hadn't established their case...

08/54 ...I had my main stategy was forst this was a case of selective prosecution by the Govt. GK was the kind of taxpayer that the govt. would normally not even bother with...they were after him because he went on TV in midland and second that he didn't probaly owe any money...so that was our double thrust going in, that first he was a victim of selective prosecution and second that they couldn't prove that he owed any tax in the first place.

10/30 ...I saw a tape of it (TV show) and I don't remember much except thinking this was a very minor thing for the govt. to have gotten disturbed about. ...it seemed no more radical than people protesting dog ordinances or anything elese.

(CHANGE HIS HEAD DIRECTION PER CAMERA)

12/32 ...I don't recall much about it, except it seemed rather innoucous...this was not someone calling for the downfall of the govt. immediatley ...I thought it was a strange interpretation of the constituion but it was not outside of the normal...he was definately being singled out because of his protest, not because he was someone who failed to pay income tax. ...

13/28 ...who knows what would have happened...I still feel if we'd have been able to go ahead with the appeal we may have been able to reverse it on that., because of several things that happened...looking back on it, I think the seed had grown quite a bit not because of anything GK and I did, but because in each of the things we tried to do in his defense the reaction of both the govt. and the court were just really out of proportion. the response that my reaction should have called for, it surprised me all the way through the trial. ...the way the judge treated me as if I was an obstructionist, when in most instencse they would have been normal defense efforts. there were several times during the course of the hearing that he would instruct me to have briefs to him at eight the next morning....any of my motions I felt like I was really fighting uphill to have him listen to them, let along consider them. ...

15/04 ...the IRS struck me as out to get someone at that time and GK happened to be in their path. For instance, this happened one of the interesting little side bits , in one of my motions to the judge I quoted from Playboy Magazine because that was the time Johnny Walters the Internal Revenue Commissioner had been interviewed by Playboy and statements in that interview where he said they really were looking to pick out some protesters and quash the movement. This indicated to me that the govt. really had full steam up and they were going after this movement. Gordon happened to be there...

16/12 ...I didn't realize we were going to lose until the jury came back in with their verdict. I honestly felt all the way thru the trial that the govt. hadn't established a case...primarily that he had taxable income during the years in question...it really came as a surprise when the jury came in with a guilty verdict...

16/52 ...they didn't have W2's or if he was filing outrageous W2's...I'm assuming it wasn't the latter because they didn't have conclusive proof of the sums of money that he earned...

18/05 ...that was the real question at the trial. My honest belief at the time was that he probably he didn't have enough income to owe any taxes, if he did it would have been really minimal...

18/46 ...no, the way the tax law was and still is, is that even if you have no tax liablity, if you had certain 3earnings you still have an obligation to file a return, and failure to file the return itself is a misdeameanor....they chose to prosecute him for tax evasion which is the more serious offense than the failure to file a return...

21/05 ...title 18 is the penal code, title 26 is the irs code..I 'm not sure what GK was talking about ....as I recall he was charged under...

22/18 ... this is an information for a faliure to file a tax return...Okay, I remember now what the situation at trial was, that this was the misdemeanor,,, that he had specific gross earnings in the two years of $9719.90 in 1973 and $11,950.38 in 1974. that even though the charge was one of failure to file a return...because of the allegations they were requred to prove specified amounts.

24/02... right, in other words, title 26, the IRS code is a misdeamenor... then you go to the penal code which is title 18 , which specifies that there are certain penalties...

24/29... this is the type of literalist reading that's quite common among the tax protesters and leads to a lot of their problems. in GK's mind, since this was a civil statue that he shouldn't be penalized criminally...there is nothing constituinally infirm with the procedure.

25/49... I think ythat most of the tax protesters like a lot of fundamenlists give the words a literal meaning that were meant to be read in a common sense way...

26/24 GK never struck me as being on a soapbox. At various times during the trial, we discussed whether he would testify.. we talked about gold/silver and the unconstitutionality... I convinced him that it would ruin the defenses we had legally...he would back away from it in the interest of trial tactics. ...

28/00 I think Gordon's case never would have never arisen today. the current IRS would think this wasn't a knat worth swatting. ...I think the govt. is less likely to take extremes stands as is was then.

29/40 most of the ones I was dealing with then were at the end of the chain... I normally would see someone who had gone to some meetings and followed their advice and were now in trouble...most of the ones that I dealt with were like ones who had gone to a tupper ware party and come back with some plastic ware...

30/31 it wasn't working right and most of them seemed shocked that this neat little thing they'd found out about was rebounding to hit them pretty severely. ...and a couple of them came to see me and they were shocked that this wasn't something that they could do...most of them were like they'd gone to a group sales meeting and this was something they thought could solve their problems.

END TAPE 14

BUFORD#15

START

TAPE 15 BUFORD TERRELL

03/50 I hate to call it a rigged trial most of lthe people had presuppositions,,, the IRS saw this as a dangerous thing, they saw the tax protest things as a major movement... the judge saw this... the IRS had conducted a series of seminars with district judges around the country... the judge saw this as a matter of fact, what's to argue , he made money, he didn't pay taxes... the govt. on one side saying big movement... the judge almost losing his temper ... coming down much harder on me than the govt... I'm not sure whether they convinced him he was a threat or it was just me doing delaying tactics...

06/10

I certainly did, begfore and after both, I was involved with 3 o4 other matters with IRS, with another case the court did say there was secleective prosecutions... ...I think this shows the govts. attitude, the thrid one of these I was involved with,,, a man refused to turn over his records... the questions was was he concealing, he was put in jail, I was trying to get him out, the judge that wrote an opinion described me as a tax protest lawyer.,,, to me this was just a small part off a much bigger, but to the govt. I was part of the tax protest moveen

08/03

It made me mad, and I think probably I would have done much more because they made me mad... one thing that was telling, ...okay in 76, I represented, the summer of 77 a man in the tax movement... I left private practise in 77 to teach, a year or two after, 79 or 80, I got a notive from IRS that my 77 taxes were to be adited.. they transferred the case to NEEW orleans and they said, niver mind we don't want to audit,.. It think it's safe to say the gobt. tattidue was to go after even the perripheral people invlolved.

10/14

I can't remember Ralston, at the time they were using two agents for everyting my impression was the two of them were hardnosed, much more out to get some body, than the noarmal agetns

10/52

I think that they wre doing some targetting.

11/06

It surprised me that that judge wouldn't listen to any of my arguments,.. he was elderly, canterrous, he had a reputaiton ... thhe wouldn't even allow me to speak,,, other lawyers said they thought I was going to jail,,, he told me to sit down and shut up... I felt like I was having to fight the judge personally

12/27

I suspect that all the stops were out on that case

13/08

I think that -art of the reason the jury prbrought in the guilty verdic t.. it was the times, where Goeroge Bush started ... very progovt., very rightwing, in veiw of the time, just as we were getting over Watergate, anyone the govt. says was bad, would get convicted by a jury.

14/50

Certainly there are kernals of truth in ther.

15/42

the judge controlled what the jury heard, he didn't give us much latitude... one of the fascinating things of law in america, the balance of power between the judge and jury ..up until 1820 the jury's had control over the case. ... they're not limited to what they hear, they may know someting... at that time the jury could hear everything... starting 1820 the judge controls law, they jury over facts... I would want to let the juries hear more in some cases and less in others... jury's are ke0pt from hearing things that are a result of improper concduct by the govt.

18/01

one of the things that compolicated thew trial, during the trial I had an infection in my foot, by the time the trial was in progesss, I was getting out of bed in the hostipait, gtoe back and spend the lunchhour in ed, get up and back in bed,... to some extent, I didn't hear a lot of the developemtns with GK... after the jry delivedered the verdict... my uncle asked the judge to send GK for psychiartriactiv exam... GK didn't want to go,,, as I recall he refused to cooperate

19/47

actually from the time the verdict came back his attidute was they convicted me they can't change me, they can't change me, send me to jail, ... this was the first time I saw the internal firmness of GK..

20/33

It probably was, he probably he was to believe in the legal process, then he followed my advice, and then he lost, that may have been a turning point for him.

21/13 Except for, let's see, one appearance when we went back to court, I asked the judge to let us represent him on appeal and he refused. and possibly one more time after the sentencing hearing, I don't think I had any contact with GK after the trial...

21/55 No he didn't turn hostile on me. I would say that his reaction, he really withdrew into himself... very much his reaction was being resigned to what was happening.

22/35 As I recall GK was working primarily as a machinist in the Odessa area, for some reason, I don't remember, he didn't work steadily for one person, he'd work one job here and one there. It didn't look like they had any records to figure out what his income was. I don't remember whether joan was working,,, mainly I had the feeling there was no way they could peice together records of where he was working and I had the feeling that the govt. never did peiece it together.

23/46 They called some of the people that employeed him. I think they may have introduced records from businesses that had hired GK a week here and a week there, but as I recall they could never assemble close to near the amounts they claimed he earned...

24/49 Well, you never forget something like this. it was an unusaul thing from the very beginning. ...

25/10 it was the kind of thing, once several years ago one of my students wanted to do a special project, so I had him do a paper on selective prosecution...little bits and pieces one way or another have stuck with me, I think probably doing a lot of tax practise, I had a pretty jaudiced view of IRS to begin with. Watching them thru these, I think has left me with a much stronger distaste for the IRS than I would have had otherwise.

25/56 I think probably it's because they can now blame it on past administrations...

27/08 I think all of the time I was invovled with these cases. I felt like that the revenue agents were taking them quite personally. They really acted as if they had a vendetta aagainst these people or as if they were attacking them directly in some way, it wasn't the same as with other tax agents in other issues...

28/04 The revunue agents as it turned out a few months later, it was kind of a collective ego that had come up. The tax protesters, if they showed up at an appt....would show up as a group and always bring tape recorders. There had been at least some intances later where people who claimed to be posse comitatus made direct threats against revenue agents... who occasionalloy even brandished a weapon of some kind. ... to some extent I think that the revenue agents took this personally , I think they were physically frightened a little bit, and they were not used to anyone from a moral standpoint challenging their authority and that's one thing about these guys they really believed that they were morally right.

29/14 Oh no, I mean the protesters. were very strong in this being a religious position with them

30/15 I think that Bitter Harvest probably made the tax protest movement sound more solid than it's ever been. ...30/22...I think what struck me about GK was even around the other tax protesters that surrounded his case, he was a loner and an outsider. if he did something he did it because GK believed it, not because the group was doing or the group said to. I also had the feeling and still believe that there were several aspects of the tax protests, there were the true believers, there were the GK's who really felt this way, but I also there were the others who were really in it to make a buck. That they had fuond a way to make some money.

BUFORD#15/31

START:

TAPE 15:31

BUFORD TERRELL:

32/22 if I were casting it today I would probably pick Walter Matthooew.... back then, maybe a Richard Gere kind of actor.

33/10 it's hard to find anyone who's very good at, who would do GK justice...tell you who I'm thinking of, he's been dead a long time, I think MOntgomery Clift would have been a good GK. Someone who can both be rather soft and inoffensive on the outside and still pretty well possessed on the inside.

34/00 . ... I think the author of Bitter Harvest really got more caught up in the mechanixs of the chase, than the dynamics of what was reallly going on.... one of the things that interested me about BH was the conflict that opened up within the govt. about it. the mixed minds of the different people involved , especially at the beggining, leading up to the shooting in medina... there were those on the one hand who viewed this as a trivial episode and others who were really going to grind out the full force of the law no matter what. ...and I think too the thing that really impressed me the most about BH was that it was just so totally inexolerable, once that warrant was out, it was going to end in some sort of tragedy. No one had any choice about the matter sooner or later... sooner or later there would be a Marshal trying to serve that warrant. sooner or later GK would resist it. I think to me that's the main thing that came thru.

35/35 When GK got back from Springfield and when the judge put him on probation after GK's telling him, don't do it, I won't live up to it. I knew it wasn't over. I was really hoping at the time that there was some way that GK could do the appeal and get the trial reversed. so that at least there would be a different starting point for the future. ...it was obvious that GK wasn't going to change.

36/20 Okay, when we were retained to defend GK. Gordon had no $ at the time and it was apparent that he didn't. The United taxpayers agreed to pay $5000 for the defense at the trial stage. once we came on as trial counsel that didn't matter our obligation was to GK. we went thru with the trial.

I think they paid us something less than a $1000 total and they kept promising us the rest. after the conviction, we talked to GK. We asked the court to appoint us on appeal or to appoint another lawyer for him. The judge wouldn't do it. Gordon had no money himself. we talked to him or Joan... the upshot was, he agreed to release us as his lawyers, so that he could either do the appeal himself or get the court to appoint him one. and I honestly don't know why the appeal didn't go forward... at the time the United Taxpayers wouldn't even come up with the money for us to have the transcript printed to prepare the record...

38/17 I think probably my main thoughts of it are thoughts of frustration . that I wish I could get the govt to ignore people who have something to say no matter how crazy it is and who really don't have the power to do any great evil.... going against GK for the back taxes he might have owed, probablly would have done as much to protect the revenues as to start the criminal process... most of the polarization in this, I think that the govt. has caused , simply because they overreacted to something that I don't think that they should have taken all that seriously to begin with.

39/25 I've used versions of it on tax protesters... I teach professional resposniblilyty...one of the rules for instance is that a lawyer should not present a position that he knows is contrary to law or cannot be argued as a good faith extension... someone who claims that the constitution prohibitts anything but gold and silver money... using GK's case cleaned up as a hypothetical, so I still use it from time to time...

#15:40:24

END OF BUFFORD TERRELL INTERVIEW