Jack McLamb interviews:

Jack McLamb interview: April 4, 1990

They asked the Gov. to order an anti-tank weapon in blow that bunker up. "He laughed and said that if they'd a got everything they wanted they would have blown that whole building and everything in it to pieces." says Jack referring to Tom Goodwin of the AK state police. 2:30

I think they would really like to see these people brought to justice but they know it would hurt them.

4:16 "I said to Doug, we've got enough here to convict these guys, we've got them flat ... he said he'd get back to me after the first of the year...it's a nasty, nasty thing. ...I think they'd prefer it'd just die down and everything be forgotten...

5:15 pan to Jack "I came to work in Phoenix in 1976, I entered the police academy. It turns out I was the oldest guy in the academy . I was thirty-to years of ageThey called me the Grandad.

6:30 I was looking forward to a lifelong career... I helped develop programs that went across the U.S.

8:40 I was certified as a police instructor. It wasn't unusual for training officers to critic shooting situations around the country. ...what could have been done differently to save lives. 10:08 On feb 13, 1983 federal officers attempted to serve a warrant on Gordan Kahl. ...within hours his name became known to officers.

11:23 I had emotions that were not uncommon to law enforcement officers...police officers have a esprit de corp. We were upset... people around the dept. were saying if this Kahl guy comes our way, we'll handle him.

13:20 critic what was done right and what was done wrong... this is what was done.

14:30 Immediately I began to have problems with what we were briefed on... I began to have trouble with police officers as to what officers did. I saw immediately that there were severe violations of tactical and arrest procedures. ...the most basic procedures were vilolated...to see these flagrant violations in a plan to supposedly arrest individuals... began to bring up red flags... you have two typse of arrest .

18:30 one of the basic violations they actually chose a time when they knew he would be with friends and relatives... that was the first red flag...that was the first red flag...they also knew that he was at a meeting where they had guns... why would you set up a risk where you knew there would be problems.

20:00 the conclusion therefore after reviewing the procedures used...you don't find these type of mistakes...you have to assume that the arreest scenario was set up to illicit a violant situation...if you understand police techniques...if they used basic techniques that lead to violence you have to come to that conclusions...

22:45 I hadf several areas of information to gather from

23:10 Bud Warren...I received a letter he had wrote to the wife of Ken Muir. (GET THAT LETTER!) bud describes the attitude of Muir as being rather cocky and did not have good intentions in doing the arrest. He also stated that there was good reason not to arrest Gordan. He metioned that the arrest warrant was not good.

26: pan from city... We again heard another shootout had occurred and another officer was killed. We heard that the infamous Gordan Kahl had killed another officer. emotions ran high, we had another fellow officer perish. ... I was interested in how this had happened..we're not used to being outgunned...

28:30 as I looked at this case I again saw that the police reports did not match the physical evidence.

29:10 when the physical evidence of a crime scene don't match what the witnesses you have a problem. ...this generated keen interest in ...we're not used to seeing contradiction between police reports and physical evidence.

SECOND TAPE

I HAD COMMUNICATED WITH PEOPLE IN AK SUCH AS PROF. ED. GRAN . ...

I was invited to come to arkansas to do an investigation...in July of 87 I travelled to akansas...

I met with Tommy Goodwyn, the director of the Arkansas state police

4:50 I knew immediately when I stepped off the footage at the cimre scen e that the alleged Gordan Kahl did not shoot Gene Mathews and vice versa...this was so traumatic for me...I had a number of sleepless nights.

6:30 what I had seen bothered me so much that I decided I wanted other officers to come in and help evaluate the evidence. August 1987 I returned and kind of held my breath as officers came in and filtered through the evidence. 8:30 It just totally blew our minds ...we knew the govt. had lied ... who killed our brother officer and why? we had all kinds of emotions in this thing. ...we went to the man who had done the autopsied.

9:40 the autopsy reports are wrong, they're just deceptive, the man decieved us with those reports. ...the skul he said had 32 teeth and GK's dental records up north have 28. We found out the officers shoot had be shoot three times and not two.

12:05 we've put together a case which we think proves what happened out there...we need to be able to legally call people in... we're struggling with all the evidence. We have evidence that the police officers themselves killed the officer.

14:15 What began to happen where I realized that law enforcement was the problem with this case... it was law enforcement that caused the deaths in ND and AK...no one was interested...acutally very concerned that this would get out to the public. I also didn't like the fact that these viol3nt acts were caused by officers. 16:00 I went from being the most decorated officer in the city of Phoenix to the most fired officer. within several years I was fired twice ...

17:20 it's caused tremendous hardship on me and my family ...when you have facts that sumstantiated wrongdoing that you don't sweep it under the carpet. 18: a few of us officers are trying to get this case before a unbiased hearing for years now and we've been unable.

22:30 they started following me night and day... to build a case against me to find something wrong... they found out one of my cars had an expired license plate on it. ...I got injured... I wasn't able to transfer into another job ...medical retirement. 26:00 since I've worked on this case there has been evidence from Wash. DC and the state of AK that I should back off,

27:30 these are the types of things that happen in other nations...

28:30 I think pressure is coming from higher law enforcement agencies.

29:20 that producer called me and asked if he could come and be in AK during our board of inquiry. This producer didn't arrive. ...He said that the head of FBI had come out and met with Charles Kupferer 30:50 We had a conference call and we were intimidated by this man. and a few weeks later all the investors had pulled out of the project.

TAPE THREE

The identity church. ... I met Len Martin who put out a newsletter about what happened to the Kahl family. I met with Pastor Ron Poach. They did a videotape and they were interested in the ND mistakes. ...

5:30 Zoom out on Phoenix. ...8:30 TALKING ABOUT G. K.

the media portrayed him as a violent man... I think he was ...

11:20 there is no indication that throughout his life he had a violent man. He's been an impecable guy... this man is not at all like we hear in the media. ...I wish I had neighbors ...like GK, who lived by their beliefs...I don't think any man could handle it any different...Bud Warren doesn't

14:00 if they really wanted to arrest that man without violence they could have.

15:00 ...it's a possiblity that someone wanted to silence GK...the farmers were listening to him. ...he was preaching and teaching to farmers how to stop the bank from foreclosing on them. when you are up against the banks in this country you are tugging on superman's cape. ...the evidence we find is of a strong headed , bullheaded US Marshal who was going to get this GK...

17:40 My wife would tell you that because of the precautions I take that I am in fear of something. ...I know that things happen...I aam more in fear of not doing something. ...I am more worried about what could happen to our nation if we don't have our police doing the rightr thing...

We can't have people executed in the community and cover them up.

20:40 I take precautions...but being a police officer you become used to it... for the first time in my life I'm not as worried about the criminal element outside as much as inside the govt.

TAPE 3:21:20 MOVED TO OTHER PARK

Jack telling the story of the AK burnout. stiff.

Jack McLamb - exhumation

Tape #6

JJ Jack what are we doing? where going?

JM: Culmination of 2.5 years of planning - last phase of investigation done by officers around the country. What actually happened to our fellow sheriff in ARK and the alleged GK in the shoot out down there. Both of them perished...officers became concerned by local sheriff dying. The info we rec'd & the conflicting info in police reports doing invest since '87 end of it we hope for us-- end of trail will be the exhumation of the alledged GK's body here in ND.

JJ: nine years later

JM: Nine years later don't know what we'll find autopsy not just errors but an attempt to cover up certain info of the all GK. This seond autopsy will tell that GK or alleg GK because not really sure it is GK to identify his remains. How he perished and lay to rest stories - dismembered intentionally burned -- and so forth. Lay to rest stories and come up with enough information to help our case

What happens next after Noguchi will help us put together a crime scene diagram exactly what autopsy shows him and what happened to the all GK body - drawings to scale of crime sc. - and he'll use that and put body in position and show us how he was shot..

JJ: Tests he will run?

JM: 6 or 8 tests the list is in my briefcase. He'll be doing tests to prove identity of GK x rays ,dental records of GK. He'll compare them see if this is GK tests to see if appendages cut off instead of burned off. The 1st autopsy said fires so intense the appendages burned off. He performs test called space technology where he can look at the ends of the bone with certain types of devices to see if metal came in contact ie. a saw or axe so there's where he hope we'll lay to rest --dismembering body. lost one of the feet-- found weeks later at fire scene we don't know how lost foot.

He'll find out if there were accelerants on the body. Dr. Noguchi warned that in the 1st aut opsy the body was washed and then at burial before embalmed - washed again. If accelerants used - still residue not sure if he can find this out. Other test....story may have some credence if burned mattress & springs looking for any circular patterns -- at the crime scene the was a mattress with only springs left. red hot and left there mark.

JJ type of bullet?

JM: He hopes to find skull intact, do measurement of bullet entering brain skull get diameter of projectile that made that hole

all speculative ideas

tell the trajectory of the bullet entering the head and where it stopped bullet supposedly stopped here and showed through what direction bullet came from

Also we have a body that has been buried with parts removed -- foot, the head, lower jaw all removed. Test to see if all parts belon to the same body torso, you might say. The widow, Joan the jaw was not that of her husband -- knew size of his jaw and his teeth, "That's not my husband's jaw."

Dr. Noguchi and his assist Bill Breckinrige to do any test they feel important.

JJ: Problems lining up exhumation?

10:04

Started 2 mo ago last year. first contacted county coroner Mark Nelson. He has 2 funeral homes in area in charge of 3 cemeteries -- his job to do exhumatons and burials. Police officers and Joan Kahl - if he would check out procedure to get exhuming permit. "Sure." He checked it out and sent me copy of actual permit form that Joan had to fill out.

Last year we wanted to go forward and after we went to Dr. Noguchi and Bill Breckinridge we found ou the cost would be almost twice ($12,000 before) then tests and examinations = 20,000. Our fault didn't have that kind of money among the police last year raising funds from police officers and people concerned.

Last month contacted Mark Nelson to start the procedures to get permit to exhume the body.

JJ: Immediate problems the last day?

J Process of setting up went well making arrangement. Day before to start -- me on a plane from Phoenix (yeserday) almost ready to leave for the day and phone rings and its Mark Nelson - "We have a problem." Bad times for problems day before.."Well we don't have the permit. He understood and checked health dept. why and have Joan K sign papers and no problem Well some way, the county attorney (state's att) found out that this was going to be done He wanted Joan to ask his permission by letter & also indicated exactly why she wanted it then he would decide if he would allow. Mark Nelson didn't know that this was required Mark said We've got to get Joan to do this I'm not doing it without his permisssion -- he sort of runs the county I called Joan in Calif. I said I'd type up a letter and told her what he was requesting...permission.. and that we would state (her main concern) : Is it indeed my husband or not? this is what we put in the letter.

And there is conflicting evidence in the autopsy report -- so she can get on with her life...I faxed to her; she signed and faxed to county attorney. Mark went over and saw him and he said he was going on vacation this afternoon (last night) and he would give his answer next week when he returned. So the answer is no at this point. So of course after 2 months of setting this all up we now find ourselves totally stopped in our tracks discuss this with Mark we agreed it wasn't right and I would research the law and I hung up. Mark had told me that there was no way he would go around this man ..he was too powerful and he would not step on his toes. Immediately I called ND and got some people to go to the law resesarch library to research it. What I didn't know was that Mark went to the attorny general

17:55

of the state - a lady - he met with her and told her and she told him she would research it herself. So we had 2 people researching this. Well I received by fax from my people from the law library ...that indicated there was no necessity for them to be involved. Called Mark and he told me attorney general was researching too. Late in the day, closing at 5 (now 3 or 4) Mark says I will call you the min. I hear from her. Lose money, facilities, plane tickets all bought..etc. 3 min. til 5 no 15 min to 5 Mark said still haven't heard. They close at 5 "I will call her immediately. I'll call you back." I'm watching my clock in AZ one min. after 5 3 afte 5 I call Mark Mark said "She's giving us permission. All you have to do is produce the death certificate. This threw a loop I NOne of us had death certif. I called Joan Kahl and she said NO she doesn't know where it is she has moved 4 or 5 times. Joan said call her daughter in TX and ask if she has one. daughter said she'd look .

JJ: So is there a death certificate right now?

JM: Mark Nelson knew where there would be a dearh certificate from 9 years ago when he buried GK he had to have a death certif on file - but offices closed now.

Right now I still have not spoken to Mark I think Mark would have called me if he had not found a death certificate.

JJ: Who will we meet with ahead? What are your fears?

22:20

JM: the only people in ND concerned I could trust don't want the media...is some of the people who knew GK and his wife. I called Karen Myers only phone no. I had asked her if I could get...

The county coroner about 3 wks ago said he was concerned about media event and he would refuse to exhume if there was a circus (media) "if I come and this happens we're going to turn around and leave. I want only 2 people there smeone to record and myself." I was concerned about one thing..such a sensitive case lot of people in govt.-- to see we don't get this case reopened. they would be very concerned if knew of ex huming the body. I don't want to speak ill of federa; officers bit fact is they've done a very fine job of covering up the situation that we know now did occur. that and so concerned possibility of fed officers would come in here at the time of exhumation and try to taint or spoil chain of evidence. Now you have the casket up, we're going to inspect it to make sure you didn't put anyting in to incriminate some of our federal officers. If they do open casket they can taint it --just fact it's opened. Don't want intimidation factor there. We asked some citizens concerned about the case to come and be on the periphery on the streets outside the area with two-way radios --on the outskirts of the cemetery so if the feds come in we asked them no guns camera and tape recorders only. This will intimidate anybody who would come in to destroy evidence. We're going to meet these peole now. I told them not to approach cemetery unless contacted by 2-way readio

27:20

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