BEGIN NODLAND#5:

...2/06..Oh course we used that and we put it in.

...2/14...I think, on the issue of the legality of the actual process that was being followed by the U.S. marshalls service in attempting to arrest Gordon Kahl in that incident, I think it was foolish; it was a terrible mistake they made; it was a tragedy. ...2/34...

It is the crux of the case as to why it happened. You know, here's this guy that is a--has a probation violation, that's essentially a misdemeanor. His crime, so to speak, his probation violation is that he refuses to fill out a simple little form that you're supposed to mail in. And, he refused to do this....2/58...

But, there were all kinds of opportunities for him to be arrested and the foolishness going out and trying to execute this search warrant and placing 10-12 people in danger, causing their deaths, in fact, but there were many others that could have died here....3/22

The bullets were flying all over. And, the foolishness of trying to execute that in public, so to speak, because that's what they did for a misdemeanor, for a probation violation of a farmer from Heaton, North Dakota, that could be arrested seven days of the week in the local super market, store, or what ever when he didn't have a gun. It just boggles the mind....3/45...

To me, it's sort of-it's a manifestation, of a sort of macho attitude. It was a nice Sunday afternoon. They could have gone rabbit hunting. They could have watched the football game. "Well, let's go out and execute this warrant." And, it just was a terrible tragedy that they decided to jepordize all these other people at the same time that they did it....4/11...

...4/20...Unless something happens that I now don't forsee, like for example that there is a movement of the kind that exists for Leonard Peltier, a "Free Scott Faul" movement that somehow gets generated out of a book or a movie, some cause. I see him being stuck in prison until he's an old man....4/43...

...4/50...I've seen some statistics ofthe percentage of people who have received sentences like him who have gotten out in their life-time. I hate to quote--I think it's less than 5% ever get out. ...5/05...

...5/14...I don't think there is any way to know.

NODLAND#5

...5/21...I think Ken Muir shot first. And, I think he hit Yori in the chest anf the bullet hit Yori's pistol, embedded itself in the pistol grip....5/31...

...5/45...Well, obviously, Gordon Kahl got the gun back to Fargo to somebody sympathetic to the defendants. And, the pistol was planted by somebody deliberately a call made to the law enforcement people so that it would be found. ...6/05...

I venture to say that you could research the legals annals of the world and not find another case, anywhere ever, where an exhibit as significant as that exhibit was allowed to be simply thrown onto an exhibit table after the trial is over; after I had made my final argument; and so had other defense council, and simply thrown on the the defense table over my objection, and allowed to become an exhibit and went in to the exhibit room. ...6/40...

I doubt that there has ever been such a travesty of criminal proceedure anywhere ever as to allow that to take place. I can't believe that the 8th Circuit of Appeals allowed that to happen. The idea that something could go into the jury room as a relevant exhibit after the trial was over, without an opportunity on my part, to cross examine, without an opportunity to do bullistic tests, without an opportunity to even comment to the jury upon its significance, or what it meant,it just bogles my mind to think-- If somebody had told me in law school that that could happen, I would have told then that they were fantasizing. It can't happen in America....7/26...

...7/40...Oh, I think that Scott did some foolish things. If there was some way to quantify foolishness, I'm not sure that in his life-time, he's done any more foolish things , for example, that I have, or you, he certainly did some foolish things. I realize that the constitution says you have the right to bear arms, but I have a difficult time believing that you significantly demonstrate your dedication to that principal by carrying guns into a medical clinic on Sunday afternoon and parking them in and amongst the discussion group gathered there. And, so I think that's kind of foolish....8/26...

But, I'm sure if somebody analyzed my life, and things that i've done along the way, they could say that "That was sure foolish that he did that." It isn't criminal. The constitution does say that. And, if some people want to do that I guess they can. I could go around, this is almost a religious gathering. It's a Sunday afternoon group and religion had a lot to do with a lot of the discussion.....8/54...

You know I could sit around and say "Well, I think it's foolish for Lutherans to do this and Catholics to do this, and Baptists to emerse people, and other people to sprinkle holy water, and Lutherans to do the things they do." And, I could do that too and its probably how I feel about a lot of things. But, none of those things are criminal. They are diverse, unique things about people. And, it's certainly not a crime. So, I can't fault them for having guns with them that day....9/28...

...9/45...I've never heard that, no. It's possible. I sort of doubt it but it's certainly possible.

...10/00...I thought about the first time that I talked to Scott Faul and he told me one of the reasons that turned himself in was that he realized that if he didn't, he was a dead man, that he would never, ever, be captured alive. ...10/16...

At some point in time, down the road, he would be executed without an opportunity for a trial. And, he didn't want that to happen. He thought he had a chance. He thought that if he wanted to see his family again that he had to turn himself in. And, he thought that the path that Gordon was choosing was one of certain death. And, he was right. ...10/37... If he would have been with Gordon, they would have executed him too. ...10/41...

...10/58...It's sometimes hard to--It's sometimes hard to carry on because you get to know and love people and families and get close to them in the course of preparing and carrying out trials, And, so you--when something happens like here where Scott is led off, seemingly for ever. And, you watch him go and you realize that you have not been able to stop this from happening, you feel a lot of responsibility yourself....11/45...

I've also, you know, many time been in the position of having the jury stand up and say "not guilty" and watching the person stand beside me walk over and grab his wife instead of the U.S. marshall coming over and putting the cuffs on. And, in those instances, quite a few of those for me, is that they have been cases where they would have been led away forever. ...12/15...

And so, you have peaks and valleys. You have times of supreme exaltation when you suceed in doing what you set out to and other times it's really hard to carry on and continue to keep your spirits up. I'm not sure if there are any studies made of this, but somebody told me one time that the professional life of a criminal defense lawyer is about ten years. ...12/42...

When I look in the catalogue of lawyers, for my community, there aren't very many who are over the age of 35. Usually, by the time a lawyer in this community, at least or in North Dakota, turns 35 they have stopped taking criminal cases and are doing tax work, real estate work, probates and estates. They're doing automobile accidents and defending insurance companies. and, it's because of the burnout factor that there is a tremendous emotional investment to have to make each time....13/24...

And, it's a paradox because, if you don't make the investment, you ain't no good. I mean, you gotta do it in order--you have to become emotionally involved or else you are worthless as a spokesman for this person. And, the minute you make the emotional investment, it takes a piece of your heart, and your mind, and your brain, and your feelings with it. ...13/46...

And, so it's hard to maintain the balance between the commitment that it takes and, on the one hand, and sanity on the other. I guess it has taken its toll. At the same time as I have had numerous of those great moments, since then too, that sort of renew you, restore your faith in judges, in jury systems, and in the system of justice that we have....14/22...

END IRV NODLAND INTERVIEW#5)