ROBERT RALSTON INTERVIEW:

TAPE #20

00/30 ...My name is robert Ralston, I'm a special agent with the criminal investigation division of the IRS in Lubbock Texas. I've been employed since 1972. I've been a special agent my whole career...

2/45 ...well I graduated from Texas State Univesity and I knew, a friend I'd grown up with was a special agent...the job market was not real good back then , but I thought it would be something I'd like to do, so I interviewed with them and was lucky enough to get hired...and I didn't have to move...been here ever since.

3/20 ...yes, I started , at that time it was called the intelligence division, since then it's been changed to Criminal Investigation Division...

3/45 ...It's an interesting job. Your'e out of the office a lot. You deal with many different types of people, there are many different people with many different schemes on how to avoid paying their taxes or evading their taxes, let me put it that way ...and it's a challenge to find that and to ....to the people are breaking the law and you attempt to prosecute them for those crimes and let them deal with their punishment...4/27 ...

04/43 ...well, I'm asked that question a lot ...cause IRS does not have a good...people don't like to pay taxes...it's a job, a professional job...it needs to be done...the country operateds on the tax system ...thats the major source of the revenue and everybody needs to abid by the law and pay their fair share... and so I think in the most part people understand, of course there's going to be a few who don't understand, but I think they do, probably more people than don't....thinks it would be an interesting job and of course it is...5/38...

6/17... yes, sometimes, I can remember it has...whenever you're working a case, you're constantly confronted by people...they don't want to cooperate with you all the time...they're somewhat reserved in talking with you...so there's this constant battle that you're hitting and like anything at some point in time you get tired of it...but, not really after you successfully work a case...that you did a good thing, a rightr thing , that what you did makes a difference, and ...yeah, there are times, when you've got this constant attitude towards you, it can affect you sometimes...7/21...

8/05 ... well, when I started back in 72, was about the time when this quote tax movement started... we started to see these 5th amendment filed returns and they didn't file any information... and they invoked their 5th amendment privelege... a lot of his people that his associated with lived in Midland/Odessa area... a lot of oil people got involved with this movement...

9/05 ...I remember this case was assigned to me, because during that time, there were , like I say, we were getting these protest returns in, I think his was one of them... he also, had been attending meetings, I think he was involved with a group called the United Tax Action Patriots, which was formed in the midland/odessa area...he was one of the probably, a member for that group... they bought air time...9/48... at some tv stations in midland/oddessa and they got up there and blatantly outwardly on public TV said that they didn't agree with the income tax laws of the united states, they were unconsitutional and they weren't going to abid by them. So they publicly made these statements, that I'm not going to pay my taxes...10/10 they also appeared on some radio talk shows... and they espoused their beliefs and really said, heh, here I am, what are you going to do about it...10/28 ...and of course, the whole system is based on voluntary filing of this return...10/37... they said, that to me, that it was voluntary, that you could do it well it's not, it's a voluntary system in that we're allowing to voluntarily report the correct amount of taxes and pay your fair share... 10/51 ...you know when people see this, they wonder what's going to happen to these people? How can these people get up there on TV and they're breaking the law...and hadn't paid taxes in x-number of years or I'm not going to...11/03... what's going to be done about it... and of course to help our voluntary compliance and to keep some integrety with our laws we've got to do something about it...11/13... I was assigned his case and it went from there...11/18...(CUT TO MARLENE AND GARY BOOTH AND THE ISSUE OF VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE)

11/37... WELL, I don't know, I don't guess necessarily, people read that stuff the way they want to read it...I wouldn't want to live in a country where they came by and knocked on your door everyday and said, heh, you owe me a thousand dollars, pay up right now. I think it's a good system,...I'm not saying it's not without it's flaws...as you were saying earlier, all govts. are not perfect, but it's the best one I've seen around. ...and I don't know if I'd change that or not...12/15...

12/28... it might have been, could have been worded differently, but at the same time I think they wanted to give the impression that we're not going to come knock at your door, we're going to trust you to do what's right...12/41...

12/48 ...yes sir, he was I believe so, because I think on this particular TV show, the best I can remember and I'm not really sure if this is how I found out he was associated with the posse or if it was from the people down in Crane...we were aware of this organization and the beliefs of this organization and we were concerned at the time and we took appropriate precautions, whenever we're dealing with somebody who would be a member of an organization like this... yeah, I'm almost positive I can remember him being on the TV show and him saying, he was a member of the posse comitatus...13/36...

13/44 ...I don't recall, I don't know if we knew it was coming on or if we heard later and went and saw tapes of it...if we knew it was coming on, we may have watched it and taped it ourselves...there were several meetins over a time period... it could have been over several years that every so often these people would be on it...14/15...

14/31... there's no telling where it is...it would have probably been used in the courtroom...14/45 ...I think probably evidence presented at court during trial was that he appeared on these shows...I don't think we showed film in the courtroom, we might have had transcripts, or something like that, but I can't rmember...15/01...

(JJ asks about the factory men who stopped having witholding)

15/32 ...I don't if it was the direct result of these TV shows, they also had meetings ...at some motels, once a month or once a week or once every other week, I can't remember how often they were...they also held meetings, they tried to thru word of mouth, get people to attend these meetings and to hear their philosophy on the whole situation and pass out pamphlets...and I understood that they.. 16/07... tried to assure them that what they were doing was right and people across the country were doing the same and they weren't alone, and that if they unit together and they get a number of people it was all going to work out fine...16/19... (CUT W/BUFORD/JOAN/MARLENE)

16/22... and then by word of mouth they tried to get people to follow...I don't know if it was a direct result of the TV shows but, the tax protest movement in Midland/Odessa did get growth for a while by sheer , just, by what this guy does , and if he's saying what he's sayings true, well that sounds good, if I can file a W4 claiming 40 allowances, which was the only way at that time that a wage-earner at that time could avoid from paying his taxes or keep from paying his taxes, that's the only way that a wage-earner can do it. so, we did have a rash of people filed these fraudulents W4 forms, claiming however many exemptions they needed to wipe out all of the withholding...17/12...

17/52... see, this movement, like I said it started, it evolved over a time period of several years that we got more of these protest returns in ...and they would sell these protest packages at these protest meetings to show you how to file this, and if you ever need help, we'll ... 18/18... (CUT W/BUFORD)... supply you with legal advice and maybe ever get you an attny. to help you at your trial, but we need to stick together on this thing...well, there was so many of em , started working a lot of em ...and then they started to get convicted, started to find out when it came to trial time, heh, where's the legal help? ...18/37... where's the guy who's going to help me? Well, we didn't lose a case...18/43... and all these people who filed these false W4s and failed to file returns or filed to file a proper return, were convicted and being sent to prison and then after so many people got convicted and saw that ...19/02......that what these people had been telling em, heh, it's going to work, it wasn't working they were going to jail and it died down and to this point we don't have a problem...19/13...that I'm aware of, so if they're not filing, they're certainly not filing the protest documents anymore...19/20...

20/18... well I think it 's a situation, we certainly didn't want to violate their right to say what they want to say, but when a man gets up and says, I'm going to break the law because I don't agree with it and then in fact does it...you can't turn your eyes away and not do something about it... 20/40... because it could have a devastating effect on the people's whole perception of what our job is, I mean, if he gets up and says I'm going to break the law and does it and he gets away with it and we're not going to do anything about it, then, it gives them a little more credence to their story or gives them a little more to the idea that well, maybe he's right...of course they weren't right, they were wrong...21/06...

21/17 ...Was there danger,.. did we perceive danger from these people,... yeah, we were always very cautious...cause we had heard about what their beliefs were , and their little blue booklet that they had , and it set forth their , what the posse comitatus stood for and what they belived in...21/45... there was a section in it about taking anybody who breaks the law and hanging em by the neck until dead on the busiest street corner in town to serve as an example...21/58... and when you get anybody that gets into a protest scenario or situation and starts saying we're going to take the law into our own hands... yeah, it made us aware that there could be...22/23...possible problems and we were always prepared for it and used caution with them... heh, look what happened in '83...22/35... it happened, and that could have happened at any point in time and you don't know when it will snap... 22/43...

23/06... well, I cna't remember for sure cause it's been so long ago... at some point in time, I got assigned the case... it just so happens that we got the returns and then all of a sudden and then he was getting active in the movement...that just helped prove our case , to show that the protester was out doing it... it was he was convicted for failure to file the proper tax returns , and to supple the proper information to the govt. on which to calculate his tax... the best I remember, I basically worked the case...24/13... before I had a talk to Mr. Kahl...and then after I got it completed,

I wanted to give him an opportunity to come in here and offer anything that he felt that he wanted to offer...I had been thru other investigations that involved tax protesters...24/41... and they don't cooperate with you. Course in a criminal investigation they don't have to cooperate with you... they've got the 5th amendment right...and so , but this was usually the case when working people involved with the tax protest movement...and you normally never got anything out of an interview with them...because they wanted to sit there and they wanted to discuss...25/04 ... the merits of whether the income tax laws were constitutional or not...so this is what I did and I did offer Gordon Kahl the interview ...he came in in his normal, best I remember, we interviewed him in the Odessa office...he brought his normal , which they usually do, bring in ten or twelve people with them...with their tape-recorders and they sit there in your office with you and they attempt to intimidate you...that's what they want to try to do...25/39... and that's what they talk about at these meetings, is to intimidate the IRS agents... well, I can't remember how long the interview lasted, but it didn't last very long...because, what occured, was what I anticipated occuring, and Mr. Gordon Kahl, he told me that he didn't really have anything to say, but he started talking about his religious beliefs and how he thought the income taxz laws were unconstitutional and basically that I was serving two gods and I couldn't do that... 26/17... and that I was going to hell...matter of fact and so after he got thru his little spiel that he wanted to say, I terminated the interview, I told him right there that it was a waste of his time and my time and I didn't want to sit there and talk about whether the tax laws were constitutional or not, that I wanted to give him an opportunity to come in and offer anyting that I might need in order to recommend whether he be prosecuted or not...26/48... and that didn't happen and they left, without problem, there was no confrontation or anyting...26/55...

27/14 ... now on critical interviews, we always have a witness, I made sure I had a witness there that day...

END TAPE @ 20:27/57

ROBERT RALSTON INTERVIEW

TAPE 20:28

28/45 ...I had called GK a day or two or a week prior to being in odessa and told him I had been investigating him...29/08 ...he did show up at the office with a group of people, I can't remember how many 8 or 10 ...with their tape recorders... trying to intimidate you... I advised him of his rights and he understood those... I can't remember exactly how the interview went... it didn't last too long...

29/50 ... in a lot of his correspondence with the IRS he stated his religious beliefs... ...

...30/18 I do remember him telling me that I was serving two gods and that I couldn't do that and that I was going to go to hell... I was serving the devil...the IRS was the work of the devil and he didn't believe in it...30/34 ...

31/03 ...at that point in time we wrote our report and it went thru channels... the states attny office for indictment, he was indicted and we went to trial in Midland...

31/40 his attnys were Buford terrel and lewis terrel... it was a short case... he had been a wage earner for an oil company and he had income from the rental of his farm...

33/08 ... I had back to back trials, another one of Kahl's associates, William Reinhardt... they were back to back, basically over the same issue...they were both convicted... there was some concern at that time...from some information I had recieved from law enforcement officials in Crane 33/48 ...that uh, both Gordon Kahl and his sons Yori and Frederick , they had no respect for law whatsoever, they didn't have driver's licenses, didn't obey traffic laws and such as that so there was some concern and GK was a member of the posse comitatus,.. so there was a chance that he would flee....so I think the judge was wondering what to do...whether to let him out on bond pending sentencing...I remember his attny asked that he should have some examination...34/43...so I believe the judge sent him to springfield missouri to have some psychiatric examinations... he was later sentenced to one year in priosn and five years probation ,,, two convictions... 35/30 ... I think the jury was out, less than 15 minutes...less than an hour... back then we had so many trials... the jury was out less than an hour, cause it didn't take them long to read the facts...35/55

36/00 well, yeah, that probably goes along with differnt judicial districts and judges...it was left up to the judge and the probation presenctence report ... judge Suttle normally gave peopople time for tax offenses. ...

36/45... I think he could se the potential problem if people didn't pay... I think there was a sense that heh, if you going to break the law... you're going to pay the price... do some time... I know in the western district of texas that people did serve time...

38/10 ...oh yeah, definately, wayne's a very good prosecutor... I can't remember if it was Kahl's case or reinhearts case (big smile) he gave a very good closing argument...very good...

39/26 ... he never backe down on his beliefs by any means, ... yeah, we did follow up on it, it was probably in conjunction with the probation office...they would be the one having contact with GK...and then they would maybe contact us, if the guy didn't provide his tax return to them ...and they could get it from us, because it was a condition of probation...I didn't have nay deal where I was checking on whether GK filed his tax rreturn last year, because I was moving on to other opeople and if we got a request from the probation office, if he hadn't filed in subsequent years, we could move to have another case on him or move to have his probation revoked...it was more in conjunction with the probation dept..

42/38 ... I think we expected , maybe even the probation office even expected to have some problems with GK... just because he got convicted we didn't think it was going to change his views of doing things.... seems to me he applied for permission to move back to ND because he was going to go back and work his farm... seems to me I had heard one time after that that he had tried to establish a church, his own church...43/16...

43/23 ... he tried to establish a church, trying to get around paying his taxes... there was a church issue at that time...how we were going to proceed against those...

44/10 ... no not at all...we did know he was with the posse...reconize the power of the county... talked to witnesses, that he was stockpiling wepons for the end...

4453 ...didn't take a long time to investigate it...and the one time that I talked to him and I believe I only talked to him one time, he was very, meek, mild mannered, didn't throw tantrums, didn't holler, he was very matter of fact that what I was doing was evil and wrong and he wasn't going to abid by it...by the laws and he didn't agree with me, and I had to do what I had to do and he had to do what he had to do...and so there's qalways the thought in the back of your mind that it was a possiblility, but, failing to file a tax return and shooting someone are on opposite ends of the spectrum 45/47... especially in fact of violence, and , but when it finally did happen, and I was shocked, I thought what a waste, an utter waste , over some man's beliefs, that whyat was, the laws laws of the US was wrong and that he would kill people over it....it spurpised me... but in looking back, I thought, well he just reached a point in that , he snapped and it happened... now, see I had jound from the local authorities, his sons were I don't know if I could say violent kids but , they were very anit-establishemtn type mentality, this is pure rumor and I never proved it, but I heard from people that knew them, that if they would watch TV and there was a police show on , that they would shoot the tv...wheher that was true or not , from what everybody else was saying, it wasn't beyond the realm of possibility...they had that type of mentality... 47/25...

48/11 ...yea, he did, I can't remember the amount, it wasn't a large amount...I believe he would have had a tax due on him, now how much I don't remember...back in the mid-70s, I can't remember what, without looking back at the records and the transcriopt of the court ...48/36... cause we proved his income, which is what we had to... we had to prove he had an income in excess of a certain amount which was the requirement to file a tax return...48/52...and we did off of that evidence, prove what his income to be, it was not incumbent upon us at that trial that he owed x-amount of tax, in fact, matter of fact... we couldn't bring it up because it wasn't one of the elements...49/03...

but I do remember, that , yes, yes, he would have owed some tax...in fact it would be reversible error if we had gone into that...

49/50... you have to prove he didn't file a tax return, you have to prove he was required to file a tax return and that his failure to file was wilful. and we proved all those...

50/28 ... the guidelines today are changing, ...but I'm sure he would have gotten some time, yes...50/57 ...these particular people brought attention to themselves, you know...

51/37 ... I don't remember a lot about judge Suttle, I don't,,, almost every fed. judge I've had expereience with,,, runs a very structured setting, he takes control...he does his job...

52/16... well, I just you know, Gordon Kahl was one of many cases I have worked, I worked it, he was convicted and he served his time...and until the shootout, I probalby never would have thought of GK again... it was a tragic deal...I felt real bad when it happened... several people lost their lives over this, something he was so hardheaded about and believed in... and that did bother me... I would not like anybody to think in my opinion...53/10... that he was a martyr or hero in my opinion of GK, he didn't like the laws, he thougyht he should have been treated differently, for whateever reasons, political or religious, he chose not to obey the laws of the US and like everybody else I firmly believe he would be the first to complain if his roads weren't fixed right or if his kids weren't getting a proper education...53/48...

...or if we were attacked by some foreign country or something,...he chose not to pay his taxes... and on top of that he probably having a lot of influence on some people, who probably ended up , several of which probably ended up getting convicted over stuff he was telling them was right... (CUT W/TOOTS SAYING, "he never tried to force his beliefs on you") ... and he just chose going about it in an unlawful manner...54/22...so I percieve GK as a guy who didn't like the income tax laws and broke the laws and we convicted him and he got his just sentence and should have went on and he chose to carry it on farther and tragically some people lost their lives over it... it bothered mewhen it came down the line...54/48...

...I think probably a lot of other people expressed the same view he endangered himself, his family and peple around him over some very basic principals about the way of life in this country...it bothered me...55/12...

55/51 ...Oh I have no idea...

56/18 ...this was news when it happened and I understand that...I'm a little concerned about there being a movie ...because I think it sensationalizes something and it might add some fuel to somebody elses fire in another part of the country who are sitting back waiting for the big one...and that does concern me... this was one of many protest cases that went to trial ....

57/37...not that I'm aware of, there were several people in this area who were personally offended that I was investigating them, me along with several other IRS employees had lawsuits filed against them and one went to trial... 58/27... no I've never had any people come back on me or valalize or threaten me... but these lawsuits, the jury was out five minutes and came back in my favor....

59/22 ... I was kind of interested when I heard about he shootings about what had went down... and when he was on the run there were concerns that he was coming back down here...so I was cautious for a while...

END TAPE & INTERVIEW