WIDICKER INTERVIEW:
TAPE STARTS @ 10/16/00
(soft focus)
16/43...I always knew the family cause they lived close by here, but I didn't know gordon in particular...until after the war and he orked in bowden and he did a lot of work for us...he did mechanic work, he was shop foreman, after a year or so he started on his own, farming...he could solve about anything...that how we got to be real close ...I helped him, he helpled me...and then he worked for us too...47, '48'49
JANIECE:...18/10... well, I got acquainted, with him later, their children and our children played together....he was a very warm, friendly person, he would do anything for you...18/44...
(still bad focus, soft 2-shot)
...HERMAN...19/33...oh, we talked about constitutional rights, he had quite a deal with this federal income tax, he claimed that it was unconstitutional, he claimed it was never voted in...and he didn't think that it was right, that it was unconstitutional and he had proof that it wasn't...20/15...
...oh yes, before he had a lot of these set opinioons of his...
...20/45...I don't know if you'd call him radical, he didn't appear radical to me, he was just an everyday fellow...what he believed, he really believed...
JAN=...21/00 ...a lot of the things that he talked about then, that people thought were fanatical at that time, have now come out in the press nad the media , these things are coming into effect....so he wasn't off on a tangent, he had inside knowledge of some of the things that were developing in the nation...
(still bad focus)
...22/03...HERMAN...WE just didn't know enough about it, you know, we didn't know what he was doing down there and when he came back he didn't say much...we really didn't know much about what went on down in texas...
(still bad focus)
23/24...we wrote to him when he was in prison, he got along real well in prison...
23/40...just that he said he was never going to prison again...
(zooms in to a med. shot of Herman, marginal focus)
24/22...they you know they had this, he had to report to parole, and he said he didn't have to report for parole, because when he was in prison in fort leavensworth...the warden said, well, I guess you time is up, we're letting you go, ...He said, well my time isn't up. He says, well, we're letting you out early ...He says, well he I go early will I have to report on parole, The warden says yes, the warden says you'll have to report your parole. He says, if I stay to the end of my term my sentence, will I have to report for parole. He says no, you'll be free. So, he says, I'm staying...25/10...
...and anyhow at that meeting, there were about six or seven of us there, scott faul and i think yori was there and gordon was there and bud warren was there and there were one or two more fellows...
****
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...25/27...(ZI-MS, passable FOCUS!!!)...but anyhow, uh, Bud Warren asked Gordon to state his case . why he wasn't reporting to parole and why he should be left alone. And he did. He wasn't radical about it. He just told the story the way it was...25/47...
(CUT W/AUDIOTAPE OF MEETING)...
...he didn't add or subtract anything from it and of course Bud Warren had to make his statement too. So, he told him, he's a law officer and he has to do what he's told and he's got a warrant out to arrest him if he doesn't report for parole...but that's all bud Warren said...then after the meeting was over. Bud Warren and I went outside it was at night. And we had a conversation out there...anyhow he never did make an attempt to arrest gordon after I had talked to him out there...26/32...and told him what my thoughts were about the kind of a man that he was...26/37...
...26/55...I liked the way bud warren conducted himself, he was a real gentleman...he didn't take anybodies side. He just them what he had to do. And he never did arrest him...and I really liked him and he didn't say, well this is it and we're going to do it this way...
END TAPE @10/27/30
WIDICKER#11
(soft focus wide 2-shot again!!!)
...2/00...oh, I suppose it built up a little,...we wanted him to slow up a little and he thought that was the wrong thing to do...and toward last he wasn't as adamant about this thing as the start...
...I know just before the shootout. I broke my hip and I was in the hospital in carrington and he came in to see me everyday and he was just realy normal...in fact he never tried at any one time, to say you shouldn't do this or do that...you shouldn't pay taxes...he never did say that...we pay federal taxes...he never tried to force his ideas upon us...I don't know if he ever pushed anyone else. He was just real fair...
...3/22...(ZI on "Bitter Harvest" on table)
...3/48...as far as I know he never belonged to the outfit...he associated with them...gordon and I were as close as anyone and he never once mentioned them to me...
(soft focuse wide 2S)
...4/42...J=...he always had a gun...
...H= toward last.
...J=he was an avid hunter....the govt. trained him to be a tailgunner. He was a crack shot when it came to hunting wildlife.
(soft focus MS on J)
...he taught his wife to shoot. When she wanted a chicken for dinner she went out and shot the chicken's head. she didn't shoot the chickens body, she shot the head...guns were as much a part of him as a pencil is with you...5/32...(bad focus)
...J=...5/55...(good focus CU) ...well we heard it on the news on the radio.I don't know how it happened that the kids came over. ...I don't remember who brought the children over the next day...she didn't have any place to leave them...didn't Janice go to see Yori...he was in the hospital and she went to see him... oh I was just (soft focus)...I was just sickened, to think that a good friend like that was in trouble like that...
...6/51...J= (marginal to soft focus)... well they tried to interview a number of people in Bowden and they said, we can't get anybody to say anything against gordon...
(CUT W/ROBERTA STAGG)
...they said, he's just a good man...
(bad focus)
...7/37...oh, they came to the farm, both the FBI and the Marshals, I think all together there was mayber a dozen fellows, checking, wanting to know if we were harboring him or knew where he was...they were pretty good about it...they wanted to know if he was in our barn up there,..as far as I knew he wasn't up there, I said they could, but they didn't...
...I went to the basketball game the next evening and somebody said, heh herman is somebody hiding in your barn upstairs...I said, well, I'm not talking about that...so the next day they were out...and the last group that was there, they came out, they kind of suprised me...I was right there drawing water...we were kind of talking about their lifes...they said,
...do you have any idea where he's at? (decent MS focus)...we'll find him anyhow you may as well tell us...I'll tell you I said, when gordon helped me put in my crop last spring he came one morning, he said Herman, I'm not going to work today, I'm going underground...he said, I'm not going to tell you what I'm doing or where I'm going, because I don't want you to get in trouble...9/47...
...and when I told them that, they said okay herman we'll leave you along...we figure you've been fair with us and they never did bother me again...but up until that time they were about the tenth or twelvth fellows that were there...10/10...
...he was fair with me, all the years gordon and I worked together, he never once took advantage of me. Never once...10/24...
...his work was execellent...
...10/44...whenever he needed money or when he was farming, he needed seed or machinery, I never charged him, he used our machinery free, but he helped me back...and if he borrowed money or get seed I never kept track of it...one year he had a pretty good crop and the pay was good , he came over one evening and he had the cash and he said I owe you so many dollars. and I says, well, he says have you got a record, I don't know, he says I know what I owe you and he peeled off the money and that was it...11/37...
...and after that they borrowed money and they always paid it back...seems to me they borrowed money from us just before the shootout and Joan paid it back. so there's nothing dishonest about those two...11/57...
(Bad focus all the way on this one so far)
...J=...12/25...he was always laughing and joking, we always, liked conversation, his feelings were never on his shirtsleeve...
...13/40...PHOTO OF HERMAN AND JANIECE
...well, one day the Bismark Tribune called me, wanted to know if it was true the reason they could not, the marshals could not apprehend GK was because the marshals came to our farm and they were met by four armed men in our driveway...so they could not apprehend Gordon then...I said that's rediculous, we're not in the habit of meeting people in the driveway with a gun...they said well thank you for , but we have to publish what the marshals have told them...14/29...(GOOD FOCUS ABOVE)...so they published that too...
(MEDIA CORRUPTION)
...14/58... like this incident , two deputy sheriffs and a marshal came to our farm, they insisted was at our place, but he hadn't been there for the second day...we were just starting field work ....and anyhow, finally they said, well, where is he, ...I said I suppose he's over at his farm...they started asking about his farm , you know, I told them, I said, I don't think it would be very wise for you to go over there. You might not come out of there...15/38...if you go there the way you came here...(marginal 2S focus above)
...so they left and the sheriff stayed back and I talked to him a while...the sheriff went east too, later on I asked the sheriff, where did you find those two marshals when you left our farm? Oh they were a mile and a half east at the highway, waiting for me...I said, what did you do? He says, I rolled my window down, I said, you fellows can go over to gordon, I'm going over to fessenden...I says, well what did the marshals do? He said, they went to Minot...they didn't go to gordon's place...why they didn't go there? I guess it was a good idea they didn't. He wouldn't hurt em if they'd of, wouldn't of been unreasonable with him. he wouldn't have done anything to em...16/35...
...(good focuse) ...17/07...I never really talked with him, but I heard that the thing just plain ran out of gasoline...
...17/30...I know a fellow that does a lot of flying, he went over and checked the plane out and he said it was just way out of gasoline...
...(decent, maybe focus)
...18/09 ....oh I think the press showed the govt side and not the other side at all...
J=...18/25...I stopped in one day at the trial when I was in fargo and I remeber they were trying to show which way the bullets were whizzing...trying to determine, what direction they were going...
...19/10...H=...(marginal 2S)...well when the accuser is the judge you can't get much justice...it was federal marshals in a federal court and it's a private individual and as far as I know they didn't prove who did the shooting as far as I know, I couldn't get any head or tails out of it...personally I think the two men that are in prison...19/43...(good focus)...now, had anything, shot anybody or did anything there. I think they were both trying to protect themselves...
...(re:Yori) ...he helped us put in a crop one year. I knew him from a little kid on...
...nice kid, we got along with him good, ...he helped us seed a crop, didn't have to watch him, he did a good job...
(soft focus)
....21/00... he was an individual, he had his own ideas like all of us...
....21/20... well we really liked him. Got along with him really well, never had any problems. And he was always willing to help and of course we helped him too... (slow ZI marginal focus)
...21/40...J=...he was the type of a person that just fit in...
...22/00 (decent focus)...well I don't think he ever intended it to get that far...
J=...it was his conviction. he stood up for what was right, for what he thought was right. He was convicted for things going on in the country and we see now there's more corruption all the time...
H...22/33...he didn't like the federal reserve system...and I can't blame him too much...
22/50...PHOTOS OF THEM ON THE WALL...
...well, you know, the way I understood it, when the shooting started, Yori was the prime target there. And all he was doing was defending his own child. Which was quite a normal thing to do...23/21...
(DECENT FOCUS/ CUT W/GK'S RIGHT TO SHOOT)
...you don't go and have a board meeting when you're going to defend your son, you have to do it instantly or it's too late...
...23/53...well, it was a carryover down in texas I believe, he would go on radio and TV and talk about the unfairness of taxes. I suppose it was a carryover from there...I don't ever remember him giving a talk up here in ND about the unfairness or the unconstitutionality of the fed. income tax law, I don't remember him giving a talk anyplace, he may have, but I'm not aware of it...
J=...24/42...I don't know, I , you just don't defy the govt....(good focus)
H=...25/32...well, he was in the air force, he was in N. Africa when Rommel was down there, they were trying to capture him...he flew over the hump...sandstorms...they'd stop over in India...he was a real good pilot..and he got into a number of air battles and he shot down enemy planes...
...I would't doubt...
J= ...he had schrapnel in his leg and of course the Gk that we buried was not gordon...27/00...
...Joan told me, she said as sure as I'm sitting on this couch , we did not bury Gokrdon. (GOOD FOCUS) ...when the body came, it came headless. She would not allow the funeral until the head came...27/19...
...they examined the head and there were false teeth in the head, Godon didn't have false teeth...
...she doesn't know...but who we buried I don't know...Herman was one of the pall bearers...
(CUT THE ABOVE WITH FAHMY MALAK AND MCLAMB CONSTANTLY SAYING, "THE ALLEGED GK")
...28/06... well, the american legion didn't want to be reped at the funeral, until one of the neighbors who was one, said I'll get some men there and we'll represent him..the head office wasn't very cooperateive...
...J=...29/04 ...well everybody that called in and told the radio, it was all a very faviorable impression, he was stadnnding up for what he believed...
...if you can stand up for your convictions...
H=29/48...I know on this constitution thing, when the congress voted this fed. income tax, it lost by one vote, but they signed it into law anyway...(good CU)...it's either a law or it isn't a law. He had the dates and the figures and everything to match it...and he just didn't like that. and also on this federal reserve...wilson signed it into law, pres. wilson did. and after he saw what it was doing he was sorry he did it, that's what gordon claimed anyhow. and, there was no way he could repeal it...he got sick in office, and we still have the federal reserve in action...and he claims that they just print the money and sell it to the govt for bonds, which is, somebody is getting advantage of this thing...30/56...
J=...what was it that we clipped out of the paper the other day...that was in the western livestock reporter...?
END TAPE @ 11:31/07...
HERMAN & JANIECE WIDICKER#12
00/22...J=...she uh, well you're not going to record that...
H=...00/35...(good CU) ...we went to fargo to get this income thing. Joan had paid her federal tax. she was all paid up. And Gordon he didn't make a lot of money and the tax there was real small, I know it was. And anyhow, we met with the people, there was three fellows in there. And I had met this one man before and he'd came out to the farm and quizzed me real hard...01/03...
(TALKING IRS PROBLEMS IN ND)
...and of course he had an accomplice in the car with him and another car behind his car. And I know those guys had guns on them. So, those guys aren't the nicest guys in the world, the IRS...1/17...
...anyhow, we were down there in the office and finally I said, okay, how much does Gordon owe you people, we wanna know, we're gonna pay this thing...1/27...
...and they wouldn't give me any answer. They said we don't know. I says, then why are you after them for? I says, Let's get it over with. Oh, they couldn't do it. They said, we'll let you know. But, they never did let us know!...1/42...
...and I think it was, between a hundred and two thousand dollars , someplace in that area. This is what my idea is. Now, I know he didn't know em anymore than that...1/55...
...
...J=...1/55...it wasn't a hundred thousand, Herman, it started out at $11,000 and then it mushroomed up to $70,000. ...
H=...2/00...well when we there it was way smaller than that. Well, she finally settled with them and it cost her plenty...2/10...
(CUT W/VICTOR SAYING HOW MUCH HE LOANED JOAN)
...I don't know what. I think it cost her around $40,000. This is just what I heard...they were way higher for a while and it cost her most of her farm I think...but they just would not settle...
END WIDICKER INTERVIEW