INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPTS

Jack McLamb

Jack McLamb interview: April 4, 1990

They asked the Gov. to order an anti-tank weapon in blow that bunker

up. "He laughed and said that if they'd a got everything they wanted

they would have blown that whole building and everything in it to pieces."

says Jack referring to Tom Goodwin of the AK state police. 2:30

I think they would really like to see these people brought to justice

but they know it would hurt them.

4:16 "I said to Doug, we've got enough here to convict these guys,

we've got them flat ... he said he'd get back to me after the first of the

year...it's a nasty, nasty thing. ...I think they'd prefer it'd just die

down and everything be forgotten...

5:15 pan to Jack "I came to work in Phoenix in 1976, I entered the

police academy. It turns out I was the oldest guy in the academy . I was

thirty-to years of ageThey called me the Grandad.

6:30 I was looking forward to a lifelong career... I helped develop

programs that went across the U.S.

8:40 I was certified as a police instructor. It wasn't unusual for

training officers to critic shooting situations around the country. ...what

could have been done differently to save lives. 10:08 On feb 13, 1983

federal officers attempted to serve a warrant on Gordan Kahl. ...within

hours his name became known to officers.

11:23 I had emotions that were not uncommon to law enforcement officers...police

officers have a esprit de corp. We were upset... people around the dept.

were saying if this Kahl guy comes our way, we'll handle him.

13:20 critic what was done right and what was done wrong... this is

what was done.

14:30 Immediately I began to have problems with what we were briefed

on... I began to have trouble with police officers as to what officers did.

I saw immediately that there were severe violations of tactical and arrest

procedures. ...the most basic procedures were vilolated...to see these flagrant

violations in a plan to supposedly arrest individuals... began to bring

up red flags... you have two typse of arrest .

18:30 one of the basic violations they actually chose a time when they

knew he would be with friends and relatives... that was the first red flag...that

was the first red flag...they also knew that he was at a meeting where they

had guns... why would you set up a risk where you knew there would be problems.

20:00 the conclusion therefore after reviewing the procedures used...you

don't find these type of mistakes...you have to assume that the arreest

scenario was set up to illicit a violant situation...if you understand police

techniques...if they used basic techniques that lead to violence you have

to come to that conclusions...

22:45 I hadf several areas of information to gather from

23:10 Bud Warren...I received a letter he had wrote to the wife of Ken

Muir. (GET THAT LETTER!) bud describes the attitude of Muir as being rather

cocky and did not have good intentions in doing the arrest. He also stated

that there was good reason not to arrest Gordan. He metioned that the arrest

warrant was not good.

26: pan from city... We again heard another shootout had occurred and

another officer was killed. We heard that the infamous Gordan Kahl had

killed another officer. emotions ran high, we had another fellow officer

perish. ... I was interested in how this had happened..we're not used to

being outgunned...

28:30 as I looked at this case I again saw that the police reports did

not match the physical evidence.

29:10 when the physical evidence of a crime scene don't match what the

witnesses you have a problem. ...this generated keen interest in ...we're

not used to seeing contradiction between police reports and physical evidence.

SECOND TAPE

I HAD COMMUNICATED WITH PEOPLE IN AK SUCH AS PROF. ED. GRAN . ...

I was invited to come to arkansas to do an investigation...in July of

87 I travelled to akansas...

I met with Tommy Goodwyn, the director of the Arkansas state police

4:50 I knew immediately when I stepped off the footage at the cimre

scen e that the alleged Gordan Kahl did not shoot Gene Mathews and vice

versa...this was so traumatic for me...I had a number of sleepless nights.

6:30 what I had seen bothered me so much that I decided I wanted other

officers to come in and help evaluate the evidence. August 1987 I returned

and kind of held my breath as officers came in and filtered through the

evidence. 8:30 It just totally blew our minds ...we knew the govt. had

lied ... who killed our brother officer and why? we had all kinds of emotions

in this thing. ...we went to the man who had done the autopsied.

9:40 the autopsy reports are wrong, they're just deceptive, the man

decieved us with those reports. ...the skul he said had 32 teeth and GK's

dental records up north have 28. We found out the officers shoot had be

shoot three times and not two.

12:05 we've put together a case which we think proves what happened

out there...we need to be able to legally call people in... we're struggling

with all the evidence. We have evidence that the police officers themselves

killed the officer.

14:15 What began to happen where I realized that law enforcement was

the problem with this case... it was law enforcement that caused the deaths

in ND and AK...no one was interested...acutally very concerned that this

would get out to the public. I also didn't like the fact that these viol3nt

acts were caused by officers. 16:00 I went from being the most decorated

officer in the city of Phoenix to the most fired officer. within several

years I was fired twice ...

17:20 it's caused tremendous hardship on me and my family ...when you

have facts that sumstantiated wrongdoing that you don't sweep it under the

carpet. 18: a few of us officers are trying to get this case before a unbiased

hearing for years now and we've been unable.

22:30 they started following me night and day... to build a case against

me to find something wrong... they found out one of my cars had an expired

license plate on it. ...I got injured... I wasn't able to transfer into

another job ...medical retirement. 26:00 since I've worked on this case

there has been evidence from Wash. DC and the state of AK that I should

back off,

27:30 these are the types of things that happen in other nations...

28:30 I think pressure is coming from higher law enforcement agencies.

29:20 that producer called me and asked if he could come and be in AK

during our board of inquiry. This producer didn't arrive. ...He said that

the head of FBI had come out and met with Charles Kupferer 30:50 We had

a conference call and we were intimidated by this man. and a few weeks

later all the investors had pulled out of the project.

TAPE THREE

The identity church. ... I met Len Martin who put out a newsletter about

what happened to the Kahl family. I met with Pastor Ron Poach. They did

a videotape and they were interested in the ND mistakes. ...

5:30 Zoom out on Phoenix. ...8:30 TALKING ABOUT G. K.

the media portrayed him as a violent man... I think he was ...

11:20 there is no indication that throughout his life he had a violent

man. He's been an impecable guy... this man is not at all like we hear

in the media. ...I wish I had neighbors ...like GK, who lived by their

beliefs...I don't think any man could handle it any different...Bud Warren

doesn't

14:00 if they really wanted to arrest that man without violence they

could have.

15:00 ...it's a possiblity that someone wanted to silence GK...the farmers

were listening to him. ...he was preaching and teaching to farmers how

to stop the bank from foreclosing on them. when you are up against the

banks in this country you are tugging on superman's cape. ...the evidence

we find is of a strong headed , bullheaded US Marshal who was going to get

this GK...

17:40 My wife would tell you that because of the precautions I take

that I am in fear of something. ...I know that things happen...I aam more

in fear of not doing something. ...I am more worried about what could happen

to our nation if we don't have our police doing the rightr thing...

We can't have people executed in the community and cover them up.

20:40 I take precautions...but being a police officer you become used

to it... for the first time in my life I'm not as worried about the criminal

element outside as much as inside the govt.

TAPE 3:21:20 MOVED TO OTHER PARK

Jack telling the story of the AK burnout. stiff.

Jack McLamb - exhumation

Tape #6

JJ Jack what are we doing? where going?

JM: Culmination of 2.5 years of planning - last phase of investigation

done by officers around the country. What actually happened to our fellow

sheriff in ARK and the alleged GK in the shoot out down there. Both of

them perished...officers became concerned by local sheriff dying. The

info we rec'd & the conflicting info in police reports doing invest

since '87 end of it we hope for us-- end of trail will be the exhumation

of the alledged GK's body here in ND.

JJ: nine years later

JM: Nine years later don't know what we'll find autopsy not just

errors but an attempt to cover up certain info of the all GK. This seond

autopsy will tell that GK or alleg GK because not really sure it is GK

to identify his remains. How he perished and lay to rest stories - dismembered

intentionally burned -- and so forth. Lay to rest stories and come

up with enough information to help our case

What happens next after Noguchi will help us put together a crime scene

diagram exactly what autopsy shows him and what happened to the all GK body

- drawings to scale of crime sc. - and he'll use that and put body in position

and show us how he was shot..

JJ: Tests he will run?

JM: 6 or 8 tests the list is in my briefcase. He'll be doing tests

to prove identity of GK x rays ,dental records of GK. He'll compare them

see if this is GK tests to see if appendages cut off instead of burned

off. The 1st autopsy said fires so intense the appendages burned off.

He performs test called space technology where he can look at the ends

of the bone with certain types of devices to see if metal came in contact

ie. a saw or axe so there's where he hope we'll lay to rest --dismembering

body. lost one of the feet-- found weeks later at fire scene we don't

know how lost foot.

He'll find out if there were accelerants on the body. Dr. Noguchi

warned that in the 1st aut opsy the body was washed and then at burial

before embalmed - washed again. If accelerants used - still residue

not sure if he can find this out. Other test....story may have some credence

if burned mattress & springs looking for any circular patterns --

at the crime scene the was a mattress with only springs left. red hot and

left there mark.

JJ type of bullet?

JM: He hopes to find skull intact, do measurement of bullet entering

brain skull get diameter of projectile that made that hole

all speculative ideas

tell the trajectory of the bullet entering the head and where it stopped

bullet supposedly stopped here and showed through what direction bullet

came from

Also we have a body that has been buried with parts removed -- foot,

the head, lower jaw all removed. Test to see if all parts belon to the

same body torso, you might say. The widow, Joan the jaw was not that

of her husband -- knew size of his jaw and his teeth, "That's not my

husband's jaw."

Dr. Noguchi and his assist Bill Breckinrige to do any test they feel

important.

JJ: Problems lining up exhumation?

10:04

Started 2 mo ago last year. first contacted county coroner Mark Nelson.

He has 2 funeral homes in area in charge of 3 cemeteries -- his job to

do exhumatons and burials. Police officers and Joan Kahl - if he would

check out procedure to get exhuming permit. "Sure." He checked

it out and sent me copy of actual permit form that Joan had to fill out.

Last year we wanted to go forward and after we went to Dr. Noguchi and

Bill Breckinridge we found ou the cost would be almost twice ($12,000

before) then tests and examinations = 20,000. Our fault didn't have

that kind of money among the police last year raising funds from police

officers and people concerned.

Last month contacted Mark Nelson to start the procedures to get permit

to exhume the body.

JJ: Immediate problems the last day?

J Process of setting up went well making arrangement. Day before

to start -- me on a plane from Phoenix (yeserday) almost ready to leave

for the day and phone rings and its Mark Nelson - "We have a problem."

Bad times for problems day before.."Well we don't have the permit.

He understood and checked health dept. why and have Joan K sign papers

and no problem Well some way, the county attorney (state's att) found

out that this was going to be done He wanted Joan to ask his permission

by letter & also indicated exactly why she wanted it then he would

decide if he would allow. Mark Nelson didn't know that this was required

Mark said We've got to get Joan to do this I'm not doing it without his

permisssion -- he sort of runs the county I called Joan in Calif. I

said I'd type up a letter and told her what he was requesting...permission..

and that we would state (her main concern) : Is it indeed my husband or

not? this is what we put in the letter.

And there is conflicting evidence in the autopsy report -- so she can

get on with her life...I faxed to her; she signed and faxed to county

attorney. Mark went over and saw him and he said he was going on vacation

this afternoon (last night) and he would give his answer next week when

he returned. So the answer is no at this point. So of course after 2

months of setting this all up we now find ourselves totally stopped in our

tracks discuss this with Mark we agreed it wasn't right and I would

research the law and I hung up. Mark had told me that there was no way

he would go around this man ..he was too powerful and he would not step

on his toes. Immediately I called ND and got some people to go to the

law resesarch library to research it. What I didn't know was that Mark

went to the attorny general

17:55

of the state - a lady - he met with her and told her and she told him

she would research it herself. So we had 2 people researching this. Well

I received by fax from my people from the law library ...that indicated

there was no necessity for them to be involved. Called Mark and he told

me attorney general was researching too. Late in the day, closing at 5

(now 3 or 4) Mark says I will call you the min. I hear from her. Lose

money, facilities, plane tickets all bought..etc. 3 min. til 5 no 15

min to 5 Mark said still haven't heard. They close at 5 "I will

call her immediately. I'll call you back." I'm watching my clock

in AZ one min. after 5 3 afte 5 I call Mark Mark said "She's giving

us permission. All you have to do is produce the death certificate.

This threw a loop I NOne of us had death certif. I called Joan Kahl and

she said NO she doesn't know where it is she has moved 4 or 5 times.

Joan said call her daughter in TX and ask if she has one. daughter said

she'd look .

JJ: So is there a death certificate right now?

JM: Mark Nelson knew where there would be a dearh certificate from

9 years ago when he buried GK he had to have a death certif on file - but

offices closed now.

Right now I still have not spoken to Mark I think Mark would have called

me if he had not found a death certificate.

JJ: Who will we meet with ahead? What are your fears?

22:20

JM: the only people in ND concerned I could trust don't want the

media...is some of the people who knew GK and his wife. I called Karen

Myers only phone no. I had asked her if I could get...

The county coroner about 3 wks ago said he was concerned about media

event and he would refuse to exhume if there was a circus (media) "if

I come and this happens we're going to turn around and leave. I want only

2 people there smeone to record and myself." I was concerned about

one thing..such a sensitive case lot of people in govt.-- to see we don't

get this case reopened. they would be very concerned if knew of ex huming

the body. I don't want to speak ill of federa; officers bit fact is they've

done a very fine job of covering up the situation that we know now did

occur. that and so concerned possibility of fed officers would come in

here at the time of exhumation and try to taint or spoil chain of evidence.

Now you have the casket up, we're going to inspect it to make sure you

didn't put anyting in to incriminate some of our federal officers. If

they do open casket they can taint it --just fact it's opened. Don't want

intimidation factor there. We asked some citizens concerned about the

case to come and be on the periphery on the streets outside the area with

two-way radios --on the outskirts of the cemetery so if the feds come in

we asked them no guns camera and tape recorders only. This will intimidate

anybody who would come in to destroy evidence. We're going to meet these

peole now. I told them not to approach cemetery unless contacted by 2-way

readio

27:20

end

CREDITS

with interviews of...

Joan Kahl
Yorie Kahl
Lynn Crooks
Toots Mathis
Dennis Fisher
John Noah
Irv Nodland
Bill Kennelly
Prof. Ed Gran
Jack McLamb
Delores Everts
Scarlet Skiftu
Herman Widicker
August Pankow
Victor Seil
Marlys Klimek
Ron Perleberg
Len Martin
Brad Kapp
Robert Holiday
Tom Lee
Ed Fitzpatrick
Gene Nail
Buford Terrell
Marlene Gaysek
Bob Ralston
Darrel Graf
Steve Schnabel
Jack Swan
Loreen Dyck
Lorna/Loreen
Mark Stagg
Sheriff Ray Weatherby
Jack Miller

cinematography

Tracy Adams
Allison Hoffman
Jeffrey F. Jackson

production design

Jim Haddon
Peter Lloyd

film editing

Tracy Adams
Martyn Hone
Jeffrey F. Jackson

original music by

Tracy Adams

sound department

Tracy Adams
Jeffrey F. Jackson

stunts

Rex Reddick

produced by

Jeffrey F. Jackson
Angela Kaye

writing by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

directed by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

CHRONOLOGY

A timeline of the life of Gordon Kahl, from early childhood interests, to his marriage to Joan Kahl, his decorated military experience, his outspoken tax protest, the Medina shootout, and his unusual death in Arkansas in 1983.

REVIEWS

VARIETY / Indie documaker Jeffrey F. Jackson sticks it to the IRS and the Feds in "Death & Taxes," a hard-hitting reinvestigation of the 1983 Gordon Kahl case, about which questions still linger. Jackson's unfazed, investigative reporting-style approach and inventive handling of familiar material make this a controversial item for fests and progressive webs. Non-U.S. viewers will also get a charge out of its conspiracy theme. read more

CHRONICLES MAGAZINE / Gordon Kahl was a simple farmer who became famous for not filing income tax returns. Imprisoned and hounded by IRS agents who never did prove he owed any amount of money, Kahl and his son were involved in a shootout with police. The son is still serving a prison sentence, but the father was surrounded and shot in Arkansas by police officers who mutilated and burned his body. read more

GUNS & AMMO / A new video documentary, Death & Taxes, details a case of government murderously out of control that was briefly mentioned in the October 1994 Guns & Ammo article "The Ugly Truth About Gun Control." Death & Taxes is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer and decorated World War II veteran, and his apparent death at the hands of federal agents. read more