Yorie Kahl #1 TAPE 0:00:00   ...I'm in Lewisberg Penitentiary... that's the big issue...   ...What am I charged with? ... I'm charged with murdering two US federal marshals and the wounding of several other officers... ...I don't know?   00/55... Where would you like to start? ... ...ookay, we went to, when I say, that's my father, my mother, myself, scott faul , david broer and a number of other people, we rode together to this meeting...   ...1/17... the meeting was essentially uh, a , conservative, rightwing politcal meeting, more or less, our objective was to try and establish what's called a townshiop govt. and the object in that is to try and curb federal expansionist powers over the everyday lives of individuals...   we arrived at the meeting a little bit late, and uh, the meeting was essentially, just getting started when we got there... there were apx. 20 people... the meeting was held at the clinic of Dr. Clarence Martin of Medina, this was Feb. 13, 1983...   2/17...and we had been working on these things for quite some time,.. we had been working with some farmers in an attempt to try and keep them from losing their farms which were being foreclosed on very rapidly and still are today...   at any rate when we got to the meeting we had many debates that went on for several hours...2/45... and we didn't come to a resolution as to how we were going to finalize this project... 2/55... the issue of the debate was the actual citizenship of the township govt. and who would be allowed to be citizens and who would not be allowed to be citizens... and this gets into quite a bit of other things which we'll probably get into later... (CUT W/DR. MARTIN NEWSREEL)   3/30... as the meeting closed, we went out to the north side of the clinic and were preparing to leave and noticed that someone was sitting donw at the end of the street in a pickup and he was watching us with binoculars... (CUT W/KAPP)   and we watched him for a while and we debated...3/56... whether we aught to go up and ask him what he wanted and basically what he was up to...and we decided to calle the local chief of police...who we happened to have known pretty well, he had been to some of our meetings... (CUT W/GRAF) ...4/10...and we called him anduh, we mentioned this to him and he didn't seem to be too disturbed about it...his name was darrel graf... 4/23... I remember when Scott came over to our farm that morning he mentioned to us that a friend of his in Harvey had heard an apb come over his scanner and it sounded like scott's car and scott had mentioned this to us on the way down to the meeting... 4/48... and, when we were at the meeting, after we had called darrel the first time...scott decide to have dave broer call darrel back and ask him about this apb, we wanted to know what the license number was on it...scott and I got on an extension telepnone and darrel gave him the license number and it was scott's car...5/17...we found out later it was a phoney apb...that was deliberately put out to create a sense of extreme danger... ...the person that put it out was apparently a US marshal by the name of wigglesworth...5/35... ...from fargo, and as far as the info. for this apb, he claimed that he had info. from somebody, but he wouldn't reveal who that somebody was during the trial ...and I have an idea who it was... I don't know if I should get into that right nnow... 6/04... no, I think it was somebody that was planted within our group...\ there was somebody involved that had supposedly worked for the CIAyears ago and he admitted this to us and we knew that he had close contact with this US marshal Wigglesworth... 6/29... ...but, we really didn't know in what compacity it was, we thought it was just due to the various brushins with the law...this guy was involved quite a bit with paralegal work ...he spent a lot of time in court and he would run across these us marshals , he apparently did have a pretty close relationshiop with this guy and he had mentioned him to us a number of times... the peculiar thing is , the marshals obviously knew who he was , but his name was never mentioned during court and I found out, immediately after the incident, he fled to Canada...7/10...   and he was never pursued and he was heavily involved in these meetings with us...and I think his role was that of an agitator...7/21...   no...7/31(good scrapping metal sound)...Politics are politics...   7/39... we called darrel and went back out to the car and I remember we had brought some, we'd brought some potatoes for some people at the meeting or they'd brought some for us, at any rate we exchanged the potatoes...we drove the car around to the other side of the clinic and we parked it... 8/06... ...and we went into the cinic and due to various things that had happened in the past...I felt uneasy about this, probably more than my father did, and scott was uneasy himself due to the fact that there was an apb was out on his car and the apb in fact stated that my father and a man by the name of rusty kouba , were apparently in scott's car on whatever specific date it was and they were heavily armed , there two other people with em and they were enroute to Minot, ND to kill the local sheriff...8/45... ...and the apb was a total fabrication of somebodies imagination, I don't know for sure who's? ...8/54... ...although like I say, I have my ides...I do think the intention of the apb was to create a sense of extreme danger in any patrolman or such that would try to stop this automobile at any particular time...scott ...9/10...at the same was thinking possibly this apb was directed toward him because he had been involved for quite some time in our little rightwing community up in ND, he had fought the income tax up there, he had been involved in the public education...he had taken his children out of public schools...9/40...and they were going to a private school... and he had quit a bit of problems over that...and he wasn't sure exactly what this was...9/50.. ...now, myself I thought that it was probably directed towards my father ...9/53... and I thought that , anything was possible and it was, we were heavily armed. We were always heavily armed...10/07...I was always heavily armed...I guess since I was 14 I carried a gun with me everywhere...   10/29...why did we carry guns all the time? I started shooting when I was five years old...I was hunting by myself by the time I was seven. My brother and myself...and uh, we knew the value of guns , the constitutions was part of our upbringing... we were very pro- constitutionalist...the right to keep and bear arms was a right and like all other rights if you don't use it, you eventually lose it...11/02...   ...and it was more or less an exhibition, I think to say, we have a right to do this , we should be doing it. rather than gradually letting these rights erode away... 11/16... at the same time, I lived in texas for a number of years on and off and I lived in colorado for a while...I"ved always carried a gun with me, like you would carry a watch with you...11/36...   11/40... we drove around to the south side of the clinic, my father, myself, we went back into the clinic , I don't remember if dave came into the clinic, scott came into the clinic...I went and talked to dad by myself, just in case, I decided that it would be best if he and I changed clothes...   12/18... well, I thought by changing clothes, in case there was going to be an attempt on his life, which I thought was entirely possible...most americans are real naieve, they think the constitution or the law is going to protect them. It's because they don't understand politics. And politics is simply activity in relationship to power...12/38...   ...and the reality of politicis is covered with propaganda. but, the reality is still there and people are killed by the federal govt. all the time. All federal govt.s, all governments, they do this...12/53... and uh, at any rate, my father had been involved more or less in the rightwing movement thru the fifties, and the sixties and the seventies...and over these years, naturally he had become pretty well known, to the point where, I don't think to the point where we were actually at the point of organizing some kind of power ourselves, but the potential was there...13/31... you know, as the country grows and expands at this point in time, the influx of aliens, the crime rate going up, farmers losing there farms, the small businesses going down, the potential for an organization becomes a reality and they know this. ..13/52...   ...and it's a natural consequence for power to try to retain it's own power...14/00 ...and, at any rate, we can get into this later on. I guess.   14/08... at any rate...I ended up changing coats with my father. and I took his cap and dave broer had been planning to come up to our place for quite some time anyway...I reload ammunition...and he had a 45 automatic and I had loaded quite few 45 rounds and I was going to give him some of these things...so he was going to come to the farm and pick some of these things up......14/38...   so, I told dave, I said, look why don't you just let dad ride with you ...I said, I'll take the car, I said, I don't know what's going on here...but, I think it might be the best thing to do...he said, sure,... it wasn't something we could really get together and say this was happening or that was happening, because we had no idea what was happening...15/04...   ...cause we had no idea of what was happening...you know, if I had had any idea that there was going to be any kind of a shoot out, I wouldn't have taken my mother along... 15/13...   ...although the govt. claimed that we took my mother along for a decoy which is absolutely rediculous...   15/30... they led. and we went our normal route back towards the farm...I remember just before we left the clinic, just as we were leaving there was somebody there that drove up and said, heh, I think you guys are being set up ...and that was all they said... 15/52...   ...and exactly what that meant at the time , could have been anybodys guess... well if I did I wouldn't say...   16/26... well that's as good a guess as any I guess...   16/43... Dave Broer, he led and I drove behind him. Vernon Wegner , a police officer from Streeter, ND, who also attended our meetings, he rode with us...more or less because he drove to the meeting with Dave Broer...I asked Vernon if he wanted to ride with us or go with Dave or catch a ride with Len Martin and he said, yeh, he's ride along with us...   17/16... So, we took off, and I remember as we were leaving there was a ramcharger that drove off down the street past us, they were driving very rapidly...so much so that we noticed em... I looked in the mirror and seen they made a U-turn and they came around and I seen em coming back down the street behind us, so I kept an eye on em...and we turned at the intersection going north towards our farm... 17/47... (CUT W/TRAVEL SHOTS) ...and as I turned the intersection ...I seen em turn and follow us... so as we were driving out of town we had driven probably about a half a mile... I remember Vernon saying to me, heh, that Ramcharger's really coming...and I looked bacck and I was watching him in the mirror and it was obvious he was really putting it down, he was probably running 80, 90, maybe a 100 MPH...because he was really gaining on us fast ...18/23... ...and I remember ssaying, yeh, he's definately coming at us.and so I assumed that he was something, but I didn't know what or who he was...and I remember I almost shot past dave becaause dave had pulled over in a driveway, ...18/40... (CUT W/RE-ENACTMENT OF THE ABOVE) ...about a mile north of town, and I was watching the mirror and I was only watching the road with my peripheral vision, so I just happened to glance down in time to see that he had pulled off, so I hit the brakes and pulled in beside him...at this point I don't remember for sure, right around this point in time, I think it was right after I turned that I seen there were two cars in the road, way down the road in front of us, maybe 3/4's of a mile or possibly farther ahead of us... 19/22...Dave begin to back his car out and he backed up maybe ten feet and then he turned back to the south a little bit and he went ahead maybe another ten feet and this Ramcharger came flying up over the hill...19/40... ...and I rolled the window down in the car, it was an electric window , I rolled the window down and this ramcharge, I seen him come flying up over the window and I seen the gun out the window , so I was hollering at my dad in the other car and I was pointing back behind us...19/59... ...and, I remember scott faul said to me, What in the Hell is this, I said, I don't know scott, and at this point the ramcharger was sliding up in front of Dave's auto. and as they were coming to a stop, both doors were open, the marshal on the passenger side, which I didn't know was a marshal at that time , he was already stepping out, even before the vehicle had come to a stop and he had a riot shotgun with him... 20/37... ...and, the marshal that was driving, he had , at that time I didn't know what it was, I knew it was an armorlite weapon, it turned out to be an AR15. and , he was aiming it at us...specifically I couldn't say who he was aiming it at, because we were pretty congested at the time...21/00... and the other marshal, he got out and stood behind the door for a minute...and I seen the other guy in the back seat, he was trying to come out...21/18... ...and I remember, this I remember the guy in the driver's seat and the guy in the back seat when they first drove up and the guy on the passenger side had jumped out and he hollered, something which we interpreted as , "You're going to die"...21/44... ...and, I mean we all heard it, and we all thought we heard the same thing, which later after we talked about it, we all heard the same thing, obviously, and these other two guys that were still in the ramcharger, they were laughing...22/03... ...and at this point, this is exactly the point in time when I told scott, I said, I don't know, I'm getting my gun and I said, I'm getting out. I opened the door and I stepped out. And scott almost immediately behind me did the same thing.... ...I told my mom as I was getting out, I said, get on the floorboard...22/31... ...and, which she did, the guy that was driving the ramcharger, I remember him screaming specifically, "We're going to blow your fucking heads off...22/42... we're going to blow your fucking heads off, he kept this up for quite some time...he was real erratic...his name was Robert Chesire, he was a US deputy Marshal I beleve from Bismarck, ND...22/57... ...I never seen any of em before, except, the possible exception of this deputy sheriff that was riding along with the marshals, he was riding in the back seat...his name was Bradley Kapp and he was the deputy sheriff from medina, they tell me that he was at one of our meetings one time,...and I'm not sure that I know him because I didn't recognize the name...23/34... (CUT W/KAPP TALKING ABOUT BEING AT THE MEETING) ...and when I saw him, course when he came to court he was real cleancut, but out there on the day of the shootout, he looked like something that just crawled out from under a bridge...23/44... he had long hair, a long beard, he was wearing a black leather jacket, he looked like something you'd expect to jump off a Harley Davidson...23/56... ...24/06... I got out of the car, I don't remember if I saw scott get out, but I heard him getting out...and I kept my eye on the driver's side who was screaming at us that he was going to blow our fucking heads off. He was aiming at me... 24/28... ...my father got out right after this also, I looked around there was no place to take any cover...and in case shooting started, I certainly didn't want all of us to be in one spot...so I started walking toward the telephone pole which was apx. 90 degrees to the side of the ramcharger, and uh... as I was walking, I remember the guy was aiming at me...25/04... and I was holding my rifle more or less down on my hip and I was pointing it back at him...as I was walking, I couldn't aim at him as I was walking...so I could point at him, and he followed me with this rifle of his until I got over to the telephone pole and then he aimed at my father... this was Robert Chesire, and when I got over to the telephone pole...25/36... ...I looked the situation over and I took an aim at Robert Chesire, who I later learned was Robert Chesire, the guy on the driver's side of the ramcharger...and he had his door open and he was behind the door, and he was down pretty low, he had his rifle out thru the V of the door...and he was aiming at my father... 26/06... ...I don't remember the timing of events here, the actual sequence, I remember that there was this other marshal who got out on the passenger side, somehow he'd gotten into the ditch and I could tell there was something going on between dave ...26/25...and somebody, I couldn't see him anymore, because he'd gotten over to the ditch, where I just couldn't see anymore...well, behind one of em, I couldn't tell where he was at...later I learned that he was telling dave to come out of the car and come over to the ditch with him ...26/46... this guy's name was hopkins, I don't recall his first name... ...27/10... at any rate, it wasn't long , I remember, uh, the guy that was in the back seat of the ramcharger , he came out of the ramcharger and he stood by the passenger door, aiming at dave or my father or somebody in that area... ....27/31...in the meantime scott had left the sight of the cars and walked almost straight west near a trailer house that was at the end of the driveway. and I didn't know this because this was behind me , you know I couyldt take my eyes off the situation here...27/52... ...at any rate, at a certain pint in time here, the guy that was driving the ramcharger, he began to scream consistantly, we're going to blow your goddamn heads off, over and over and over, and uh, while he was doing this, this may have been done as a diversion or something, I don't know, it was strange, it's something I still think about a lot...28/26... ...because he just kept screaming it over and over,...he obviously got our atteniton, anyway when he did this I remember the other officer who had gotten into the ditch, he jumped up and he ran, and I seen him get up and start running...28/44... (CUT W/ SCHNABEL'S & Kapp's ACCOUNT) ...towards our car, and when he did I hollered to my father, I said, look out behind you, I took my gun off of the guy that was driving the ramcharger, and I aimed at him, while he was still running, and my father turned around and he aimed at him and they were aiming at each other...29/01... ...and he was standing on the other side of our car and my father he was standing right out in the open , and they were aiming at each other and, my father told him to put his guy down and back off... and Chesire, or who I learned was chesire later, went absolutely frantic when my dad told him this, ... it was unbeleiveable, at any rate, I took my gun back off of this gun and I put it back on Chesire...29/35... ...and, it must have been about this time that things started happening...I remember I was aiming at Chesire...well, there was one other thing that did happen...and I'm not exactly sure if it happened before this or just about this time...the other cop that was in the backseat , who had gotten out on the other side, with the beard and the long hair. he walked around to the backside of the ramcharger and he aimed his shotgun at me. So, I took my shotgun off of chesire and I aimed right between his eyes..and I guess he didn't like looking down my barrel ...30/21... ...I had a mini14 and ah, when he saw that I was aiming right at him... he was aiming at me too ... but, he scurried back around the otherside of the ramcharger, back over there where it was a little safer I guess. And at any rate, I remember right after the incident where the officer ran up out of the ditch and over behind our car. I put my aim back on chesire , and I was aiming at his head, which was all that I could see...this was apparently when the shooting started. ...31/04... ...Now, whether I actually fired the first round or not , I don't know and the reason that I don't know is because this all happened extremely right here... I remember getting hit in the chest...I remember thinking to myself that I had been shot from behind... I mean it felt like it had took my lungs right out...31/27... ....and I remember thinking to myself, gee whiz, how did somebody get behind me...I remember my gun going off...I don't, I can't say I remember it going off the second time, there were two rounds fired from my gun...31/50... ...in my mind it's still very, very, it's so close I don't know, because I can specifically, to me if I had shot Chesire he wouldn't have needed to be shot twice, you know, I mean at this range believe me, I can't imagine myself missing him at all, at this range...32/14...\ ...maybe thirty feet, we're talking about real close range...and I'm a real good shot, you know, and I had a full view of his head, which is what I was aiming at...32/31... YORIE-TEXT#2...     ...32/41... well, I remember thinking that we weren't going to get out of this without some serious shooting...and although this was during the confrontation, this was before this...because things were really, in a bad situation...I know the US Marshals when they came to court later they said, yeah, we were telling em we were US Marshals and to put there guns down and all of this///and uh, specifically I can remember them telling us, they were going to blow our fucking heads off...33/20... ...and uh, you know, they're not going to tell us that...   ...no they didn't say that anybody was under arrest...33/38...and I'm positive of that, and I asked scott if he heard anything like that, and I asked dave if he heard anything like that. nobody heard anything like that... and I mean at this distance if they'd been hollering, , everything else they were saying was clear, you know...   34/13... well, I remember getting hit. I remember standing there for a minute, or when I say a minute it was obviously a matter of very few seconds, because I think the whole shootout lasted apx. fifteen seconds...34/28... (CUT WITH OTHER TIME LENGTH DESCRIBTIONS) ...but it seemed like a long time. I remember getting hit and I remember getting hit again . I couldn't tell for sure, where all I was getting hit...34/42... ...I do remembver, at some point it was obviously when I got hit by the double ought buckshot in my lower abdomen I remember it felt like a redhot rod stuck in my guts and I really got sick over that...34/58... (LAUGHS) ...that's an understatement...yeah, I hit the ground after that, apparently after that. and I remember laying on the ground and I could hear the shooting. Now the strange thing is I can't remember hearing any shooting before I hit the ground, none...35/16... ...but I remember reading that the vietnam vets said, that a lot of times you wouldn't hear rounds being fired. YOu'd be caught up in someting so much, that you sometimes wouldn't hear them until after you've been hit ...I don't know whether that's relevant or not...35/41... I do remember taking note of that, up until the time I hit the ground I didn't hear any shooting and after I hit the ground there was a lot of shooting going on and a lot of it was directed at me because the ground was wet , it had snowed, but the snow had melted and the very top of the ground was muddy and the mud was splattering all around me, from the bullets hitting the ground...and I tried to get up twice ...36/16... and both thimes that I tried to get up I remeber getting hit... I got my arm shot out from under me once...and uh, then I hit the gorund again and I remember looking at my arm and I was possitive that my arm was broke . possibly even shot off, becaue it was in a position I culd never get it into... and , I tried to get up again , I only had one arm left and I tried to push myself up with that and I got shot thru my hand...36/52... ...my right arm... and it just seemed like after I got shot in the hand that last time, I was just out of energy. I couldn't do anyting I couldn't move. I was hurting real bad. at this point in time I dind't know who'd been shot. and I remember laying there thinking gee whiz, all of us just got wiped out...37/27... ...you know , I dind't know how many of them there were...I do remember these other cars coming down, cause I could see them coming in on us peripherally , but I couldn't take my attention off of these other guys, to watch these other cars to see who they were ...so conswequently, I didn't know who they were, I didn't even know how many othem there were...37/53... ...yes, because of the situation, the ramcharger was maybe fifteen feet from dave broer's car, so consequently by looking at the one, I could necessarily see the other and I could see everyone around them ...38/10... ... so I could see where he was at all the time...but I couldn't specifically keep my eye on everybody thru out all of this...38/26... ...38/34... no, I remembver after the shooting stopped and I was still laying there , and I thought I was dying, you know, because I could feel my energy leaving real rapidly ...and I was certain that was it, and I remember I heard something, like someone walking towards me and it turned out to be scott ...and I don't know how far away he was, but he hollered at me, he said, YOrie are you hit or are you alright or something... and I said39/02... ...look scott I'm hit bad, I'm not going to make it, so you better get out of here , I thought he was the only one left alive at that point , I couldn't even lift my head up. and he kept walking toward me and the reason I know this, I could hear him walking towards me , although I wasn't looking in that direction because I was laying with my face down, oppisotie away from him...I remember when he was almost to me, he said, he stopped, he was startled, ...39/51... ...he said, what was that, who's that, who's that, and I said who where, what are you talking about ? he said there's somebody running down the ditch . he said who is It? I couldn't lift my head up to see, I said I don't know scott...40/07... and uh, I remember this came up later, apparently he had raised his rifle and aimed at this person , not knowing who he was or what his was doing , I guess, and uh, he never shot him. It turned out to be Bradley Kapp , who after he had shot me and emptied his shotgun, he took off running ...40/30... (CUT W/KAPP'S DESCRIPTION) ...and I guess he ran up to the top of this hill and this chief of police was up there , and, uh, apparently him or someone took him to the hospital, or to the clinic, I don't know who that was,...   ...40/47... anyway scott walked over to me and he held me up and said , oh no, you're going to make it, you're going to make it..I kept insisting I wasn't, I was certain that I wasn't...I just didn't see any point in him wasting any effort or time there with me...once he got me up, he half carried me, I was able to walk a little bit, I guess, he carried me maybe 30 feet towards our car and then I just had to stop, and he put me down there and for just a few seconds I needed to rest and then I remeber he picked me back up again and took me to a car , which I don't specifically rember , I remember getting in the car and leaning my head against the headrest and ...41/41... ...and I remeber waking up right in front of the clinic...from that point to the next p0oint that's all I remember...   41/54... yea, I lost my right kidney, and my gall bladder, I guess my liver was shot up pretty good. my intestines had been perforated, with quite a few holes, I don't know how much they cut out, I guess they cut some intestine out that was irrepairable...uh, I had a slight graze on my right lung, which I had some problem with that, and uh, otherwise that's about all the parts that I missed...42/25...   surprisingly well, ...   42/56... right I remember, going into the clinic, I remember, scott was there, I believe it was at the clinic that I gave him my 45 which I had been carrying in my should holster, apparently this marshal, the chief marshal, his name was muir, he had tried to shoot me in the heart or the chest and he had hit my 45 , and I remember, I had forgot all about my 45, with all the other interesting activities, I remember as I was going into the clinic, scott tells me that this is not right, this is the way I remember it, you know, I remember as I was going into the clinic, I thought of my 45, and I knew I wasn't going to be needing it , so I reached in to grab it and I felt the handle, something had happened to it, and I remember pulling it out and giving it to scott, I said my 45s been hit and I said, look I'm not going to be needing this , at any rate, he took it, I never even looked at it, I didn't even want to look at it, I mean I was sick...44/22... ...and I went into the clinic and they took me over and layed me on the operating table, and I remember laying there and I remember bradley kapp was sitting there on a bench or on a chair, this deputy sheriff and I still didn't know who he was...I mean, he was whining and crying and carrying on...44/48... (CUT W/KAPP'S MEMORY OF IN CLINIC) ...and, uh, doc martin he was real hard of hearing, I remember telling doc, I did what I had to do and uh, doc was pretty worried I could tell, he had known me all my life... 45/05... and I remember Kapp was over they whining about something or bleeding or something. I guess he was bleeding pretty good, but I guess they weren't real serious wounds except for he did lose a finger in the shootout...45/21...   ...I remember doc told him, he kind of wheeled around on him and he said look , you're going to be all right, he said, this man's dying... and I was certain that I was anyway, and doc gave me a shot of something to coagulate my blood or something , so I wouldn't bleed so much internally , and I remember, that, it seems kind of funny, I remember I had to get my boots off...45/48... (CUT W/ JOAN TALKING ABOUT BOOTS) ...seemed like an emergency, I had to get my boots off...I don't know, it does seem kind of comical, but at that point in time it was a real serious matter, the boots had to come off no matter what else happened, they were killing, my boots were hurting me...mom and I guess it was an ambulance driver ...46/15... ...helped my mom get my boots off and I guess they cut my shirt off, it wouldn't come off otherwise...and you know I had a brief little talk with my mom, still assuming that I was dying, I asked her to look after my wife and kids and stuff for me, and not to worry about it.. and of course she was , uh, I don't think she had all her senses there , yeah, an extrememly emotional person anyway, she was pretty frantic...46/54... ...(TAKE A BREAK)   ...47/40... well, who gets the right to define the term?...no, he never broke a law in his life... ...47/56...well, uh, his organizational efforts in the tax movement in texas , his invovlement with organizing the first charter of the posse comitatus in texas and his various activities... (POSSE COMITATUS 48/20... the Posse comitatus? the posse comitatus is something that was develped under english common law as a means of the people for defending themselves in case their representatives or their overlords became abusive of their power...it was a means of them taking into their own hands, power which they delegated to their own servants... ...48/48... govt. is theoretically , govt is a servant...course we know in reality this is not true, but uh, that's the theory of law in this country... ...49/24... I think that what we've got is numberous small groups scattered out across the country , more or less bound together,,, similar ideas, the constitution, the so-called rights of the people , even other things beyond that that tie these people together...   50/08 ...yes, it is, however, by it's own definition, the actual idea itself, lends it toward an organization that will if necessary take action...   50/53... well, I see for example, if we compare our incident our activities , what happened to us, with the activities of the people that initially started the revolution in this country...that revolution was started in reality by England, although England had a right to so by law, now that necessarily made those that were resisting the tyranny of england , the taxes, the other monoplys which were being established, which were contrary to the interests of the colonists. that necessarily made the people that built this country criminals...they became criminals because they said , no, we're not going to take this anymore...51/46... (REVOLUTIONARY WAR COMPARISON) ...we can't do it anymore...   51/53... sure, sure, his look at the law for example was that the constituition was the supreme law of the land. that all officers of the land are servants of the pepole , and are bound to protect and defend the constitution of the US. Now, they all swear to do this , but there's not one in the country that does this... ...52/18 ...and that's because , politics, the real force... they allow these ideas to float, because, people sometimes if they believe they're free , even a slave if he believes he's free , you know he'll be a happy slave...   ...it's a complete illusion...but, freedom itself is such an abstract term, what it means to one man, it doesn't necesarriy mean to another...52/55...   53/03 ... well, he had...did he have freedom? I don't know? ..... 53/26... I don't know, that's a difficult question, cause what does freedom mean? what does it mean?   53/54... I can only tell you what he's told me...various little adventures he had in the war...he took the war very seriously at the time... 54/07... ...he was like everybody else, you read the papers and get emotionally charged up and do your patriotic duty, even if in the long run it's not your patirotic dUty , but you don't know that at the time... (WWII) ...54/24 ...I know that he, uh, he was very sad, that he had been led into that war blindly, like so many americans were, that the result of that war firmly established communism in the east, it shrunk the powers of western europe , the whole west, tremendous depths, and it was designed to do that...   55/05... yeah, after the was, it was obvious that communism, was a declared enemy of the west, openly declared . and yet at the same time as he began to look into communism there was a big communism scare here after WWII up thru the fifties and even up into the early sixties...and uh, my father studied a lot, when he found out that we built the soviet union, that we built that military machine that's going all over the world , conviscating all the territory and bringing it under it's own imperium... ...55/45...then he realized something was dreadfully wrong. Here in the US our own tradition, our own laws are being overturned daily, in favor of socialism, and by socialism, I mean socialism of an intl. type...56/03... ...which is quite contrary to a natl. socialism...   56/35... I know he kept his uniform for years and years and he kept his medals on it and stuff. I remember one time when we were, had gone to texas till the spring, and somebody had broke into the house while we were gone and stole his uniform . he was kind of sad about that, he had put his own blood on the line...   57/05... well, you know the strange thing is, I asked him a couple years after he'd been to prison... when it dawned on me just how corrupt the courts are ...and how much politics really rules these ideas, these illusions of freedom and democracy , and various rights that we're supposed to have, and I saw that was all a fraud... 57/32... ...you know I asked him, I said, well, did you know that they were gonna put you in prison when you went to court, he told me, he said , yeah... 57/43... ...I said, why did you do that then? He said, well, because I had the best case there was. He said, there was no better case to beat this charge ...there was no better case, ...he said, I had to prove to these other people that believed in the law, that believed in the power of the constitution, that the constitution is dead...58/08...   (CUT W/TEXAS TAX TRIAL)   ...I had to sacrifice myself to do that...and I asked him, would you do it again? and he said, no I wouldn't do it again, he said, there's no point in doing it again...   58/28... well, I rememer when Mr. reinhart was sent to prison , he was sent to Stafford, AZ, ....I remember it was a very short period of time, maybe a week or two, we found out he was dead... (CUT W/JACK SWAN TALKING ABOUT TELLING REINHARTS WIFE) and uh, this was really disturbing , we wanted to know what happened and everything, and I remember, his wifes name was Kathy59/04... and I knew these people real well, I'd lived with them for a while,,, 59/16... ...I remember an inmate had called his wife and told her that he had a number of inmates, I beleive it was 31 inmates, quite a number of inmates, it must have been a whold cell block or something. that would testify that he was murdered...59/35... ...that the inmates themselves kept him alive for a number of hours , you know with mouth to mouth resustiation, and beating on his chest, trying to keep his heart going...59/46... (RE-ENACTMENT? OF REINHART'S DEATH THROES...) ...and the guards would come by periodically to see if he was dead yet... 59/50...     END THIS FILE @ 1:00:00 (ORIGINAL MASTER 8MM TAPE CONTINUES...GO TO FILE ENTITLED: "YORI#1)   YORI INTERVIEW:   TAPE #1:00:00 (CONTINUATION OF ORIGINAL 8MM MASTER WITH THIS FILE BEGINNING AT 60 MINUTES INTO IT)   00/35 ...yea, I think that was the trigger, although there are a lot of guys that go on tv that don't go to prison. Tkhere's a lot of guys out of the tax movement that never go to prison who make a lot more noise about taxes than he ever did ...00/48... taxes wasn't the real issue, his invovlement witht the posse comitatus, his invovlmement with tht taxes, his understanding of how the political sphere works in this country. Presented, at least to the people that rule this country , the potential resourcefulness that was there... potential leadership in this country is either groomed into their ranks or it's eliminated. and if they can't controll it, then it's either going to be put on a back burner somehwere or eliminated altogether... 1/30...   ...1/39... yeah, yeaaah, I think so, and I don't think it was much his leadersh abilbities... because to have leaders you have to have followers ... at the time, the time was ripe, the permian basin was probably the largest explosion of tax resistence in the whole country. there was the potential there for a real organization, and they don't tolerate that unless they can control it. ...   2/19.. well, I remember she went back to ND and she just kept up her pace, doing the things she alwyas did. I know she wrote to him every day or two...and he was in prison, his actual time in prison was probably 8 or 9 months. and three of those months were in Springfield missouri where he was sent for psychiatric evaluation... which is not an uncommon thing anymore...it's pretty easy to label your enemies as pscyhophrenics or lunatics or someting to discourage people from taking interest in them and I think this is a kind of safe guard or something...3/20 ...   ...3/44... ahhm, you know I look back at my life as a child and my father he was always a kind of stable person ...he contained his emotions real well, very quiet, soft spoken, always serious, very serious, he was playful with kids , but otherwise he was serious, evertyhtin was serious, not always urgent, but serious...4/23... he was the type of guy that if somebody needed help, he'd help em, the kind of guy who wouldn't pass up a hitchhiker without picking him up...one those kind of guys... if he heard of a neighbor somewhere that had a bad time , they didn't have food or something, he'd load up a bunch of food and take it over, that's the way he was, even if he didn't know em , just because he heard of it... and this was his nature...4/53... ...Now, my mom was , was different in a lot of ways, she's very emotinal which is typical of women...ahh, she didn't take thinkkgs nearly as serious as my father did...my mom was much more materialistic than my father...I look and I see my fther as a spiritually motivated person, everything had it's cause...where my mom, she was more of the type that looked at the superficial value of things...much more, and consequently, this caused a number of problesm thru the years. my dad was fighting for a cuase ...5/41... it didn't matter if it cost him everything he had, including his life, because it was something he believed in...5/51... ...whereas my mom she valued things different, well, you'd lose this or you'd lose that, she never really saw the cause, that was his business... she was busy taking care of the kids...   ...6/26... I don't know, I don't know that it was ever really worked out, ..now today my mom after looking back course you've always got a hell of an asset with hindsight, but now she sees the cause... she sees now all the things he said, what they really meant back then, but that's the difference between vision and looking back... 0700...   7/10... well, for the most part I don't think it really concerns them that much... they're typical americans they live for today and think that's sad, but I think that's the way it is... ...7/28... alll , virtually all of the children my sibling, were very materialistic people themselves and out of all of them I was like my father, the rest of them were like my mom...in the way we looked at the world... I had four sisters and one brother... I'm the oldest son and I have three older sisters. ...   8/15...well, once or twice a year I guess...   8/30 ... well the years that he farmed I was very y9oung, so I probably couldn't answer that as well as somebody else ccould...   8/48... it was, expensive today to farm, if you don't already have your machinery... he had been working in texas it finally got to the point where he wasworking full time and not farming at all ...eventually it got to the point where he coulnd't do that any more...because the IRS would just hound everybody to death... they hounded the employer that he had, ...the only reason that they kept him like they did, was because he was an asset that they couldn't afford to get rid of...9/29...   (CUT W/ TOOTS)   ...and uh, ... ...9/59 ... no, but he wouldn't take any money from the govt. except his pension which was a disability pension, his view on that was a little bit different, it was something sacrificed...   ...10/35... well, I first met Bud while , we were in a US Marshals holding cell , this was after the incident, we were waiting for a hearing , and I remember bud came in and I had never seen him before but scott told me who he was and I had heard of him a number of times and , I remember walking up to him and he was taking my handcuffs off ...11/03... and I remember looking up at him, he's a real tall man...and I asked him, I said, what do you think of all this bud, ...I remember he looked me in the eye for a minute and then he put his head down and said, I can't tell you what I think, I'm wearing a badge... 11/21... (CUT W/ BUD WARREN STUFF) ...and the man is a gentelman, he, when they use the term peace officer, it applies to him , he's the exception, he's not the rule, he's a very honorable type of guy...I think a lot of him, I think he was very naive over the years with his duties versus his concious type of thing, and I think he felt that dad was right, he certainly didn't see dad as a criminal ...he couldn't understand all the pressure on this guy , at the same time he's aying this is my job, this is my duty , it wasn't his duty, duty is really when it comes right down to it, a matter of conscience...12/17... ... ...12/37... I guess this went on for several years...if I was, it must not have been very important because I don't remember it... 12/48...   ...12/57... the paranoia???...       ...13/11... I don't know? I don't know... well, I'll tell you, we were having these meetings in ND. I reemember my dad and scott faul, they went to visit with a guy down in Kansas, who headed an organization for farmers, and uh, I believe he wwas the guy that lead the big march on Washington DC ten years ago or whatever it was... they had a meeting with him and they wanted him to come up to ND ...13/48... ...and they would set up the meetings and he would come up and speak to these farmers , explain to them what's happening to these farms, why they're being foreclosed on, what's really going on here and uh, so we were setting up these meetins, ... ...14/04... ...and basically what it comes down to is these farmers are going to lose their farms . They can't keep them, they don't understand how money really works, they don't understand credit,... some of these farmers have spent millions of dollars on their farms and they still don't own em... it's paid in interest to the banks... 14/27... ...and the small banks in turn are being foreclosed too, and this process is going to get worse...14/35... (SUPER IN THE DATE OF THIS INTERVIEW RE: TO ILLUSTRATE WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THE BANKS SINCE THIS COMMENT.) ...the value of the dollar in this country has depleted so much over the years that they 're continually having to induce it with large quantities of money which further brings down the value ... at any rate these farmers , as a matter of fact just this last year, I don't remember how many farmers lost their property, but I do remember that close to a hundred thousand were determined by the FHA that they were going to have to foreclose on them and tha's a big chunk of farm land to be taken all at one time and uh, at any rate, you know it's the best for the farmland is in the hands of the farmers, not the corperations and not the banks...15/25... ...so it seemed to us that this was something that was very urgent , something that these farmers needed to be organized, these farmers needed to know what was happening...with this credit system, and how it was designed to exploit them and rob them in the end anyway...15/44... ...so we had set up several meetins in ND, and we had quite a number of farmers that attended these meetings and of course we went to these meetings armed... I went to the grocery store armed and it wasn't that I was hiding these guns...I wore a 45 ...16/06... (RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS ISSUE) ...on my side most of the time, there wasn't anybody that knew me that didn't know I carried guns...   16/25...well, let me tell you a little incident that happened, we were down south and we found out that the IRS had filed a lien on some of our farm property... we knew there was going to be no trial, no hearing because that's not how they operate...16/51... now the theory of law in this country of course, is that before someting can be taken from you, you know, whether your time, your life, your property, whatever, there is a process of law involved...theoretically you're supposed to go to court and a jury is supposed to hear the issues and determine these things, well , it doesn't work that way... 17/11 (GOOD COMMENT ON "DUE PROCESS/JURY SYSTEM") ...and especially so when you're talking about the IRS . The IRS they seize things, and then if you can get it back well good luck , uh, if you have any resources left to work with after they take it, well, you're a real lucky guy...17/28 ...and uh, it may take you years and you may never get it back and there's very little you can do about that ...you can go to court and you can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting them and in the end inevitably lose one way or the other...17/44...   (CUT W/IRS INTERVIEWS & PSAs)   ...if they attack you, you're losing, and it's just as simple as that , everybody that's been attacked by them , will tell you, that if you're attacked, you're losing...even if you've won a victory, you've won no victory at all, because their objective may not be to ruin you ...it may be to deplete your resources and therefore to pull you back from whatever activities you're involved with...at any rate they put this lien on our farm, or part of our farm, ...18/19... they had an auction, or they attempted to have an auction but nobody bid on the property... 18/27... (TAX AUCTION) ...I think that the reason for that, more than anything else, because the price was real cheap, it was good farm land....was because everybody knew what they were doing, as greedy as some of these farmers are, they still didn't go for that, because everybody knew what they were doing...18/52...   ...and uh, we did find out however, that there were US Marshals and possilby others at the auction that day , and I think their attempt was to maybe to get my dad to come out in the open that day, I don't know...I believe he was at the farm that day...   ...19/45... at any rate, I know that these Marshals got very nervous, because Scott Faul was at the auction and he had a camera and a tape recorder , and he was taking piectures and he was making a record of everything...and that made them real nervous and it does make them real nervous, because they know what kind of crooks they are...20/04...and theylike to do everythin withiout anybody knowing...   ...20/22...I really , I do remember a probation officer coming out to the farm one time and I remember him sitting in the liveing room and they were talking about politics ...but all of these guys, I remember an FBI agent who came out to investigate dad, me and dad were standing in the yard , and I seen this car come driving in the driveway, I said, gee whiz, what's this the CIA, the FBI, what have we got here...and 20/56... it turned out to be an FBI agent , and he come up with his nice white shirt and tie and he said, I'd like to talke with Joan Kahl, which is my mother, you know that's suprizing, ...he didn't even ask who I was, he didn't ask my father who he was... so I said, come on in...so I took him into the house and we were all siting in the kitchen...and mom was either making coffe or baking bread or something, he was sitting at the table and my dad was sitting across from him and I was either sitting or standing off to one side and I remember he said he was there, he said he was investigating the murder of Judge Woods from San Antonio Tx...21/45... ...and he wanted to know if mom knew anything about it or had heard anything about it and the reason for this by the way, the reason they were interested in people in the tax movement concerning this is because Judge Woods made a statement at one time which got a lot of publicity down in texas , that, he said, I'm going to quote this to the best of my abilbity, this is close, he said, let me have all the tax rebels, I'll make sure all of them go to prison...22/18... ...and this made, this made it's rounds and it made a lot of people real mad...because here the guy was saying arbitrarily, to hell with the law, I'm putting these people away, he was saying beforehand, that these people were going down, that they had no rights...22/39...and consequently, they naturally thought, since the people in the tax movement had every reason to do this, let's check them out... 22/51... ...23/01... No, in fact, I remember like for example this FBI agent, he was sitting there and him and dad were talking about how things were getting in the country and the crimerate and one thing after another and another...23/17... ...and this guys sitting there and he agrees with him , yeah, you're right , things are getting out of hand, the federal govt. is getting too big, and they always do this to your face, they'll agree with you a hundred percent , they'll talk about how terrible things are here , and how terrible they are there and they'll turn right around and shoot you...23/37...   ...23/50 ... well, I don't know what their excuse is??? I really have no idea,... I know Bud Warren came out and they had a meeting and they talked about it and everything, and bud couldn't understand what the big fuse was about... (CUT W/BUD WARREN MEETING AND WHY THEY DIDN'T TRY TO SERVE THE WARRANT AT FARM) ...I know he was attempting to contact his superiors or somebody and find out what in the world was the big ruckus, what's the problem ... here you've got a guy he's retired, he's not bothering anybody, what is the problem... why all the pressure...   24/45 ... the plane crash, all I can tell you about the plane crash is, I picked up the plane after it was wrecked, when I heard about the incident, I immediately thought to myself, well, I don't know what caused this, because the plane ran perfectly, it was in excellent condition... I couldn't imagine what actually caused the accident, but I felt something was terribly wrong...so I got in my pickup , I was living in Minot, ND, and I drove down to the farm, trying to find out what happened... and I remember when I was enroute to the farm, I was running a 120 mph... and I remember I came around a curve and there was a higway patrolman there and he saw me coming and I never slowed down...not for him or anybody else and strangely, I passed him and after I passed him , he turned around and went the other way...25/56... ... that alone told me that gee whiz, they must be expecting me. Beecause obviously I was driving as hard as my pickup would run and it was obvious and jsut the fact that he turned around and went the other way, that told me that they must be expecting me...so, right away I'm thinking to myself, there must be something else going on here too. ...so I went down to the farm and found out my dad was in the hopsital, I went out to the plane, when I got to the plane there was a guy there from the ...FAA, the federal aviation ad. he was looking at the plane, it was raining out...26/51... ...I drove up and I asked him who he was and he told me who he was , and I told him, this is my plane and he said, well I've got to inspect the plane. that's my job, I said fine, he said I can't do it here , I can't do it in this rain, I said, here's what I'm going to do , I said, I'm going to take the plane over to the farm and I'm going to tie the plane down , I said whenever you get the time come on over and look at it. or do whatever you got to do...he said fine... so I loaded up the plane , and when I loaded up the plane, the plane was sitting in the ditch with it's nose up , and a friend of mine helped me and we pulled the plane up on the road and when the plane sat level, gas was runningout all over the place...now I didn't think too much about it at the time and it didn't suprise me...27/54...   END OF ORIGINAL MASTER TAPE #1 (90 MINUTES TOTAL) END OF SECOND FILE ON MASTER #1       YORI MASTER#2 1   YORI MASTER#2     YORI KAHL INTERVIEW   MASTERTAPE #2   00/03... so at any rate, I took the plane home and the gas ran out of it, ran all over everything all over my pickup,,, then I went up to fessenden , ND to the sheriff's office, because I hada 45 automatic that I always left in my plane unless I got strandeed somewhere, and a pilots folder...and for some strange reason this stuff had been taken out of the plane... 00/47...   ...and I wasn't sure who had it, I had heard the sheriff in fessenden had it , I didn't even know who the sheriff for fessenden was...I walked in and the guy from the FAA...1/01... (CUT W/ SHERIFF PELLET)   ...Was there and there was another officer there, I beleive a state patrol... 1/10...the sheriff, but I didn't even realize it was the sheriff and I was talking to him ...I said, my names yori kahl and I'm here looking for some property that belongs to me, he was real snotty with me and said, yeah, what's that?... 1/26... ...and I said, I'm looking for a blue folded w/ my papers and I'm looking for my 45 automatic... ...1/48... He said, do you have a permit for that pistol? and I said, no, I don't have a permit for that pistol...and he said, if you don't have a permit, you'll never get that gun back...1/58... ...well, I said, I will get the gun back ...and I said, I don't want you ever to mention to me anything about a permit, again...2/08... ...and he gave me my pilot papers and I left... I didn't even realize this was the sheriff I was talking to, I thought it was some cocky cop... 2/17... ...so I came back later... and , he and I had a copuple of different confrontations in his office over this gun, and he finally gave me the gun back...2/37... and the man was a coward... I mean... ...2/45... strange thing, he said to me one time, and I remembered it, because it was unusaul the way he said it to me, and after all this happened and he came to court and testified in court against me, and I found out he had been working with the US marshals and stuff, trying to help them with my dad and stuff even before the incident...3/00 ...it dawned on me the statement that he made, he said, look I know that I shouldn't have this gun, that it's your gun, he said, but, if I give you the gun back , he said , the big dogs won't like it, and I remembered the statement because of the strange way that he put it...3/18... ...and I didn't think anything about it at the time, I thought he was saying that meaning that the law system the way it is, they want everybody to have permits...to have permission to do everything, to buy bread to sell milk...evrything...I didn't really realize the value of that statement until after the incident, ...the big dogs he was talking about...03/45... were these US marshals and I think they were tyring to use the gun to create some kind of incident, I don't know... He ended up making me real mad...and but he did end up seeing it my way...04/02...   4/08...what happened was dad was in the hospital, and we got word that if we didn't get him out of there right away, we weren't ever going to see him alive again and I can't tell you who told me that, cause it could ruin somebody , but I believe it was good info. and I believed it at the time, so I just went up to the hospital and I took my father out and I left with him and sure enough it was two hours later that the place was swarming with federal agents...and so whterh or not we'd have ever saw him alive again we can't really say, but on the other hand after all that we've been thru, I wouldn't doubt it a bit...4/55...   (PLANE CRASH & HOSPITAL EXCAPE ABOVE)   ...5/02... no, no, no, what are they going to do with the warrant? He already served the time...they can't put him back in prison, what are they going to do? ...5/13... ...he's already served more probation on it than the sentence calls for...you know the maximam sentence is a one year sentence, you know, what are they going to do with it? find him, shake their finger at him, they're not going to put him back in prison (OUT PF FOCUS ABOVE AND NOW) ...5/30... he'd already completely served the first term .... the second term he had already done two years probation on a maximum one year sentence, what are they going to do with him...   6/15.... months, a matter of months... out of state and both...   6/55... my religious upbringing, I was raised under the influence of very religiouos parents, especially my father, my mother too, but not into the depth that my father was...he was the kind of guy, he read everything, he read the history of the church fathers , everything, he was that kind of person with everthing, if he wanted to study something he studied it and he studied it thoruoughly...7/29... ...I remember when I was pretty young, maybe four or five, six years old, my father was a mormon and he became a bishop of the mormon church , and he became disillusioned with the mormon church because as he started learning about Free Masonry , he saw in free masonry, because he had been to the temple in Salt Lake City and he had gone thru the rituals... he saw that they were exactly the same as the Masonic rituals, the little apron and everyting...8/14... (CUT W/TOOTS TALKING MASONS) ...and he didn't know that at the time, because he didn't know that much about masonry, when he began learninga about masonry and he saw that the mormon church was a shoot off of Masonry somehow...8/28... ...and of course we found out later that Joe. Smith was a mason and naturally he inc. into his church the various rites and rituals of maonry which is where they came from... my father went to see one of the high represtnataive of the church out in Montana and they ended up gettin ginto a pretty heated argument over this and my father quite the mormon church over that, because he saw that it was a fraud, and he did remain a christian, he remianed more or less indepedent after that...9/11... ...and it was something he studied a lot and something he believed in and I did too, ...my beliefs have changed quite a bit about it over the years , merely because I press myself so hard to study it...and my disillusion with it is in the study of the early church...9/40... ...where there is a lot of good points and principles and good morals... that is good for a nation , there is no doubt in my mind, ... at the same time everything is a two edged sword.... 9/54...   10/00...I've read that quite a few times, thinking about that, it's interesting...   ...10/18... well, I 've seen a lot of pain and a lot of misery , and I've seen a lot of lying and underhandedness and I've seen a lot of things that I believed in myself , that to end up being not what they really were , not what I believed they were, for one example the constitution .... ...10/42... I remember when I grew up, when I was a young teenager, my father gave me a constitution and a declaration of independence and started lecturing me on the constitution and how it got the meaning that it did...and what the meaning was, we used to go over some of these words because I didn't understand them...some of the wording didn't make sense to me as a young kid , but I came to believe that the law is the law is the law...11/09... (CUT W/ SOMEONE ELSE SAYS "THE LAW IS THE LAW IS THE LAW")   ...you've got to obey the law, well in reality the law obeys the politics , judicial interpretation is a means of rerouting the law to fit the needs of the governing people...I've seen a lot of real tragedy, ...the thing is sometimes you know, I look at it gee whiz, these other people can't understand, it's impossible for em to understand because they didn't go thru it... ...11/46... ...and things like, for example you said yourself, gee whiz, if somebody sees you carrying guns around, they naturally think you're up to something terrible, right, and people are like that...11/57... people do judge before the fact, people are very much so, this is the herd mentality to do that...   ...12/19... oh I think it's very positive, I think, I look it over and I think about this a lot, it's been painful , I've been stripped of everything that I ever had, you know, my family, my wife, my kids, my father, everything, all of my so called freedoms, and uh, at the same time I see a lot of things that Ive gained.... for example things that I've studied, my understanding of the system, my determination that I had to understand the politcial significance of all of this...12/59... ...uh, what I think the future is going to be, it's given me a lot of insight into a lot of things, I definately believe that our country is definately going to be falling apart, they're not rebuilding anything... it's crumbling and peole are exploiting as fast and as hard as they can to get what they can get before the dust starts flying, and I see in all of this, I see things that appear to be solu tions ... how I would ever impliment something like that I don't know...but none the less it has put me in a position to understand these things real well, and I think without a doubt if you never struggle I think you always stay weak in a lot of ways and I think struggle does perfect us...13/57... ... 14/07... well, I think , he died the man that he was, he represented what he represented, he didn't compromise, ...He fought for what he believed, he always fought for what he believed... and he was killed for what he belived, and I respect that, that means a lot to me...14/29...   (GK WAS KILLED FOR WHAT HE BELIVED)   ...and it does mean a lot to a lot of other people too, especially when they become aware of what he was fighting and why...14/38... ...I think that, he would much rather to die like he did, than to be like everybody else , become apathetic, you know, who really cares... and sit down and just let it go, he wasn't that kind of guy...15/00...   ....15/07... well he despised lawyers, just like I do...   ...a legal approach, I don't know....   ...no hopes, no not really...15/40... ...I don't know... ...I've been to the parole board three times...15/55...   ...oh sure, I'm sure of it... they always make a note to ask me if I still believe the same way I did when this all happened...and, that's the problem...   ...I don't know... I think they'd like to see my spirit broken, you know they sent me to a prison as far away from home as they could have...16/53... it's the real ghetto of the fed. prison system here... the theory is that I'm supposed to be in a level 3 institution, I'm a level three prisoner...but I'm in a high security , a maximum security prison...I'm supposed to be as close to home as possible in a security level institution befitting me...this of course isn't the case...the object here is to keep me as far from home as possible, separate me from my family, keep my contact down...as much as possible... 17/36... ...try to disillusion me, wear me away, I think all in all, it's done mor good to strengthen me , than to, cause somethimes you can fuel yourself on you bitterness too...17/55...   ...18/14... well, they dealt with it like , just like the people in the country in this country that rule this country would like them to handle it...18/26... (CUT W/IRS STATEMENTS RE: CAN'T LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THIS)   ...they kept the issues, the real issues from public scrutiny. They flared the issues, they sensationalized the deaths of the marshals, what kind of fanatics we were, they labelled us neo-nazis , other various terms... this has had a long range effect...18/54... (MEDIA COMMENTS) ...in this country, the labelling of people, the powers that be, if we want to call them that for the time being, when they want to keep someone from reaching the public, with any kind of a message, the first tactic is to smear him...19/12... ... call him a facist, a neonazi, put a stigma on it, this automatically, because of the american mentality, this automatically turns them off from listening to him as far as credibility is concerned, they may hear him, but it never really has a meaning... they did this in our case, there were a number of things that happened, I remember, the govt. went with their propaganda campaign and then the judge very conveniently issued a gag order on us so that we couldn't tell our side of the story...19/51...   (ND TRIAL/GAG ORDER/ MEDIA MANIPULATION) ...these kind of things happened thru out the whole process, we were, it was a real battle, it wasn't even a real battle, that's not even fair, we never even had a chance...20/08...   ...and of course, in court, we weren't allowed to bring up our political ideals, even though this was the basis for the whole case, you know...20/22... ...this is where it all stemmed from, our political and religious ideology...this was the whole thing, and they didn't want us to bring this up. they wanted us to isolate ourselves, to well on feb. 13 you shot some US marshals, right? Sure we did...20/40... (CUT W/ LAWYERS TALKING ABOUT THEM WANTING TO DEFEND THEMSELVES WITH IDEOLOGY)   ...and case closed,... but what about all these other years when they were terrorizing my dad, and they were terrorizing his employers, and they were harrassing him and harassing him, and the numerous other things they did thru out the years, does that become meaningless , that had no part in this? Of course it did...21/02...   ...21/11... well, there was a, you know it was pretty funny, cause the govt.s case came out with a lot of variables. they uh, even though they spent a lot of work to get a case together, they still came up with a lot of variables...21/32... ...you know like when they testified, just for example, when a US marshal or an FBI agent interviews a witness, he takes notes and then he revizes the notes and puts it in a statement form...and the staement form , as a general rule, you'll find this to be true, and the statement form usually conforms to the govt.s case, whereas the notes that he took doesn't necessarily do that and this is why the govt. doesn't like to use tape recorders...22/09... ...because you can't alter the tape recorder, because what's there is there, ....so it's a lot easier to take notes and then they can change the notes to fit the case as the case develops, well this happened thru out the case ...not just with us, but with all the witnesses...we had witnesses that said, gee, well I never said that... 22/29... ...I don't know where he got that from and in a couple of cases we actually got the notes that they had taken and the difference between the notes and the official stgatmetn were like day and night, but it didn't seem to matter, nothing seemed to matter... 22/50...   ...23/22,... he made contact with somebody...   ...23/40... he knew what was happening...and he also knew that they were going to kill him...   ...23/53... well, let's just leave that like that...   ...24/05... well, he was sad, you know, he wasn't afraid, you know, he knew what his fate was going to be when they caught him ...he knew what it was going to be and contrary to what some people have said, that he would have turned himself in and stuff, I find that pretty difficult to believe...because even if he had turned himself in, I know that he didn't believe that they were going to say, okay we got you, we're going to let them go, because that's not how the system works...24/42... ...he was under no delusions about what was going to happen with him, what was happening with us...I don't think he knew exactly what he should do in that particular situation, I mean, what'll you do? they got US marshals running all over the country offering people hundreds of thousands of dollars to turn him in... and I'm not talking about the little $25,000 public reward...I know for a fact that they were going around offering tremendous amounts of money to people who lead them to him... 25/28...   ...25/46... well, see I wasn't surprised, I told my mom before the trial that they were going to do that...uh, I knew they were using her as a buffer for the sake of the jury, had she not been there , and not been involved in this, the chances are, probably much more favorable for us that we would have been acqwuitted or else our charges would have been much less then they are...26/18... (CUT W/JOAN & ND TRIAL ISSUES/JURORS) ...and consequently, they understand emotions, these poeple understand emoitosn, I mean court today, involves a lot of psychology , a lot of theatrical performance...they emotionalize jurors, and they're good at this, they know what they're doing and the judge can control how much emotions are going one way or the other, and he can just stop you... and what are you going to do about it??? Appeal it? ...26/50... (CUT W/JUDGE BENSON COMMENTS) ...that's got nothing to do with that trial...I've seen these things happen , I've seen at critical points during the trial would just say, okay, we're not going to get into that any farther, because he knew what was coming and he didn't want the jury to know what was coming...27/08... (CUT W/JURY TRIAL ISSUES) ...consequently the jury doesn't necesarrily hear a case at all. ...even though they think they heard the whole thing, they didn't necessarily hear anything...27/18... (CUT W/LORNA SAYING , JUROR WAS SLEEPING, MARLYS SAYING SOME OF THEM ALREADY HAD THEIR MINDS MADE UP...ETC) ...AND THIS happened in this case, although some of these jurors believed that we were not guilty...27/25... ....I had em interviewed and I've got these tapes, audio tapes and in transcripts too...we've got a couple of jurors who said, yeah, gee, these marshals went out there and attacked them, tried to kill these people, they were only defending themselve, but, we didn't have no choice but to find them guilty because the judge ordered us to...27/47... (CUT W/JURY COMMENTS) ...in his instructions ...course they didn't understand their duties, they didn't understand the power that they had or anything like this...27/57... ...I think that this is the ting about this case that makes me the saddest of all...that they grab a bunch of people that are totally ignorant of the law, totally ignorant of politics, that have never been faced with anything of this nature ...and they take em in there and they say okay, you're going to judge these people here, and to see the ignorance,...I glanced over to the jury a number of times, there were a lot of things that I wanted to tell the jury, but you know, I looked at them like sheep...I looked at em and I said, gee, you can't tell these people that...28/29... ...you know, because these people could never understand that...   28/44...he was, uh, he wanted the case, for the sole purpose of the noteriety, he was a young kid, he was basically a divorce lawyer, was what he was, he had no experience. in criminal law, and I mean this was somehting like, it would be like taking a sixth grader and making him the head of the armed services or something, he wasn't ready for a case like this... now , don't get me wrong, he did a good job as far as his perspective of the thing...29/22... (CUT W/SOGARD) ...now he and I talked about the politics involved and other things and it scared the hell out of him...29/29...and he came back to me one, day and he said gee whiz, all that stuff you've been telling me is true. He said , man, I don't know about this...and it made him nervous, he didn't know what to do...I said well, you know, here's what I want you to do. I said, are you going to be able to do that?...29/46... ...and at the last minute as the govt. was resting their case, he told me he couldn't do it my way, he just couldt do it...and I knew at that point that was it...because the whole issue was politics, ...yeah, we killed some US Marshals, and we didn't have any alternative...30/14...   ...30/30... yes, they or Vernon Wegner, they isolated him from us, heavily. They isolated him from everybody and I instinctively knew that he was going to make some kind of deal with them. Becasue he wasn't involved for the sake of the cause. Politics wasn't his motivating factor, novelty was his motivating factor...and consewuently, when I found out they had isolated him, I knew what they were doing, they were putting pressure on him that he coulldn't stand...he did plead guilty. and I don't even remember what his charges were, he didn't even remember what his charges were...31/08... during the trial, I remember one of the defense attnys asked him, well Mr. Wegner, you plead guilty , right? and he said Yeah. And they asked him, well, to what? and he just sat there...and sat there and sat there and sat there...and the defense attny asked him, well, did you hear me? and he said , yeah I heard you ...he said, well, what did you plead guilty to? ..., he said I don't know. I'd have to look at the paper work and see, he said, I have no idea...31/33... (CUT W/WEGNER NEWS FOOTAGE) ...and basically they wanted somebody to plead guilty and he was the weak link. they wanted someboyd to plead guilty because, you know, here you've got a group of guys together, if one of them's guilty, they're all guilty...this is the idea , anyway and it carries a lot of weight...31/52... because people are emotional creatures and they think much more with their emotions than they do with reality,...DAve Broer they tried to work a deal with him and he wouldn't work with them at all...I mean dave had an impecable case...32/16... ...I mean not matter how apathetic the jury was, I can't imagine them finding him guilty of anything, what did he do? What was his act?...32/27... (CUT W/ JURORS & LAWYERS ON BROER) ...he prayed...32/35... yeah, they found him guilty...and dave had no idea what was going on, he was coming to the farm anyway , so I said look why you don't take dad, we didn't even discuss it with him...because we figured, ehh, it's probably just a false alarm ...dave had no idea, vernon certainly didn't have any idea...he was just there and if you had been there, you would be here...(STRONG LAUGH)...33/07... ... ...33/15... who knows?... he fired some rounds at fairly long distance , after I had been shot, matter of fact after I had been shot a number of times and was on the ground and still being shot...33/28... then he started shooting and he shot at the ramcharger...now, whether he hit anybody or not, what difference does it make?...33/38...   ...33/38... No! No...no, it was impossible to tie anybodies bullet to anybody through ballistics...the theory of the govt. was, gee whiz the marshals are dead, you were there, you've got to be guilty...33/52... (CUT W/BILL KENNELLY SAYING HE BELIEVES CHESIRE SHOT MUIR)... ...everybody's got to be guilty, you see this was the defence that our attnys used was not the right defense ...they were saying, well, gee whiz, you can't prove that this guy shot this guy...it doesn't matter, ...if I shot all of them it wouldn't matter...they needed to be shot...34/09... (BIG QUOTE ABOVE) ...I realize that sounds kinda rough, especially to the general public, I probably wouldn't want them to hear that, because they've never faced anything like that...34/33...   ...34/53...sure... in myself, well, uh, I still believe in the cause, more so than ever, now, I understand it better, I wish had understood it better then...I would have, you know in that particular situation...at that point in time, let's say, it came back to the point where, there we were, the guns were on us. and we had a decision to make, at that point I would have made the same decision that I did...what else could we do? ...before that I would have done things considerably different...35/47... ...our organizational efforts would have been done differently, I would have still been doing that...   ...36/03... What the cause is? The cuase is higher culture and I think I'll just leave it at that...36/12...   ...36/29... Yeah, (re: Karen Russel) ...well it probably wouldn't be good for me to run into her. It'd probably be a lot worse for her...36/40... (CUT W/ ART RUSSEL TALKING ABOUT KAREN) ... ...36/55... I don't know, I've got a lot of em...(memories of dad)... ...37/08... bunches of em are popping up... ...37/17... well, he was so concerned, so caring with all of his kids, I remember at a very early age, but he was like this with kids...and uh, you know there 's so many experiences, so many things,...the thing that I'll cherish the most about him , is the fact that he was an honest man, he didn't lie, he didn't steal, he didn't cheat. he stood where he stood for a reason... many times he'd been offered jobs , that paid a lot of money and wouldn't take them because they demanded that he compromise his values and he wouldn't do that...38/15... ...and he wasn't a materialist, he was the kind of people that have always built the quality in a nation, every nation, you know, every culture throughout history, the people that saw farther, that cared more, that sacrificed themselves, ..and this is what I see in him, you know, this is what I want to carry on... 38/47...   ...38/55 ...well they both did... but, uh, dad always disiplined me differently... uh, he rarely spanked his kids, he would sit us down and he would tell us, like, he would explain to us, why we shouldn't be doing what we were doing...and he would go into a long explanation about it and how bad it was, or how somebody could get hurt or various other things...39/26...his method was, bringing to the situation an understanding...39/32... ..where my mom being the emotional type of person she is, she would react...and out would come the flyswatter or something a different kind of...   40/46... well, you know, I remember an incident, I'll tell you because it's something I've thought about a lot of times...we were ah, when I was a kid , my dad, he really liked pheasants for an example. And, when he was a kid there were a lot of pheasants in our area in ND, but they had pretty much become extinct in our area due to the predators and thier habitat was detroyed ...and stufff, I don't think it was so much the habitat , I think it was the predators more that anything...because they still had plenty to eat and a good environment...41/22...and I remember, he taught us, if you see a horned owl, shoot him because he's a terrible parasite, or a terrible predator on these pheasants and gross and small game...41/35... ...and because we shot small game and we ate it, we were, we took care of it too and I remember one time a horned owl landed in a tree about 3/4s of a mile from our place...and dad got me and my brother and he said look there's a horned owl down here and we're going to go get him, so off we went , I had a little 16 guage single shot which belonged to my grandfather, matter of fact the feds stole that too, my brother had a little 20 guage shotgun double barral that my dad bought my mom right after they got married...42/18... (CUT W/JOAN SAYING HE GOT HER A SHOTGUN) they took that too , I remember I asked my dad when we started in there, I said, if I see a cotton tail can I shoot him? because we ate cotton tails, and he thought about it for a minute, and he said, yeah, okay, he said, but if you shoot the cottontail, it'll scare the horned owl away, but then we might not get the horned owl anyway...so anyway, I more or less, I wanted to shoot a cotton tail...42/46... ...you know, and you know to take it home,...so I was walking in towards the trees from the edge of the field and a big jackrabbitt took off, I was mayber six years old ... and I seen this big white tail plopping and I pulled up and shot it...and I was just happy as can be, I'd scared the horned owl away but I was happy...so when I came back down thru the trees, dad asked me, what did you shoot? I said I shot a cotton tail, he said you did, I said yeah, ...He said, well go get it...so I ran all the way over thru the trees and I drug this big jackrabbit back ... 43/30... ...and , I drug it up there and dad looked at me and he looked at this rabbit and he shook his head like this , and he said, he said, that's not a cottontail......I grabbed the tail and I said, look , I thought that's how you determined which type of rabbit was which, if it's tail looked like it was made out of cotton, right...43/55... ...and uh, because I had just started hunting, and I mean I'm still hunting with dad and he said, no, that's a jackrabbit and he was explaining it to me , and he said , not only is that a jackrabbit, that's a momma rabbit,...and he showed me her tits , and I felt her belly and I could feel the little ones inside of her, she was just ready to have them...and he said, in a couple of days she would have had those baby rabbits, and he said, now all those baby rabbits are going to die... 44/29... ...and I was just tore up , I mean I was crying, you know, I wanted him to cut the baby rabbits out and let me take em home becasue it was my job to take care of them, because I had killed their mother...44/44... ...and he said, no, they wouldn't make it... and I've never forgotten that, and time and time again, I think back, and I remember a lot of incidents like that...44/54.. ...and, I mean, because he would never shot anything unless it needed to be shot...45/01... ...and that includes US marshals, you know, I mean, he would shoot a predator, if it needed to be shot, he didn't shoot predators just to be shooting em...   (THE RABBIT AND THE MARSHAL'S STORY***)   ...you know, if you had foxes out here that were killing all the game animals, they had to be kept down and he did that...45/21... ...because he loved animals, but he loved the game animals more than the predators...and everything had it's value and just like in our situation, obviously he loved us more than he did the US Marshals...45/34...he wasn't the kind of guy who would just go out and shoot somebody because he got mad or anything like that, it wasn't like that...45/39...   (CUT W/SCHNABLE TALKING ABOUT GK COMING UP AND NOT SHOOTING HIM... AND HIM NOT SHOOTING KAPP & PEOPLE MAKING THE QUOTE, WHAT YOU DO IF THEY SHOT YOUR SON?)   ...46/09... well, uh, she's durable...(good laugh)...   ...46/24... No, he had a good sense of humor, but he was a very serious person...   ...46/49... well, he didn't tell dirty jokes... his jokes were, when he joked, was a reflection of something, always had a meaning to it, always had another meaning to it...it wasn't just a wasted joke, to be told and forgotten, it always had some sort of moral principle behind it...47/19...   ...47/38... not really much (re: GK's final days)   47/46... Yeah, bout a week after the trial...and uh, I don't know how true this is, but, according to some information...you wanna shut that off... ...48/37... It's uh, I mean they'll know who it is, if anybody ever sees it, you know what I mean, it's uh, I've got the transcripts, and the audio of the interview with the other person...I think that it would probably be interesting...49/08... if you took like a couple of these jurors in specific, that really feel real bad because we're here, and uh, I think you could something like this with them, at the end, when you do your conclusion for example, you know, ...49/27... these are the juries, you could make a dramatic thing out of it, if you wanted to, because.... there are some there ... (CUT W/JURORS) ...49/45... , there was one juror, I can tell you this too, because it really infuriated me when I first found out about it, this one juror, was really mad, because, my mom didn't go to prison for at least two years... and his reasoning was, ...50/03... (CUT THE ABOVE W/PANKOW) ...she was my father's wife...I mean I've got it on tape, it's not someting I've got on tape, it's not something I'm making up...I've got it on tape, he said, you know I knew it the first night I saw it on the news they were guilty, bla, bla, bla...50/19... and this was the way things... this was one of the jurors...   ...50/34... oh,oh, oh,...after the thing down in arkasas, well, if you had cold bloodedly murdered somebody and butchered em and burned houses down, would you hire some investigator to go tell the public about it...??? (CUT W/ARKASAS GRAND JURY QUESITON)   51/20... well, you know, I'm afraid that people don't learn from other people's experiences...but I wish they would, I wish we could all do that...I think if the public ever stopped to look into the case, they would all be shocked. Because the general public in this country, they don't measure events by their reality or things like this, sometimes things are sensationized for em to draw em...51/59... ...but, they really have no idea, of where this country has gone in the past forty years. And they have no idea of what the future can really be. and I'm talking about the near future. and things can happen fast, when things get to such an enormous preportion...52/19... ...engenedered by by such instability as our economic system for example, the racial and cultural tension in the country, these things can explode and cause havoc, that they really have no idea...52/37... ...that they could face themselves, in the meantime because there are people that are aware of this. and they are aware that things are in the critical condition that they are...these people are not allowed to address the public...52.54...ever, not ever...you know I saw Lyndon LaRouche on TV the one night. The guy is kind of a strange guy in some ways, and I'd read a little bit about him, here and there...I don't pay much attention when the media starts slandering somebody... I say, gee whiz, what's their motive in this, my do we keep hearing that term, over and over...again, the public doesn't do this... ...I was watcing him on tv late one night, ...he was talking about the federal reserve and the economy and all the things that are happening and he made a good program. 53/46... ...he understood what he was talking about, I don't know about some of his other beliefs. But what he was saying were things that I had studied very very deeply myself. And what he was saying was true and right to the point and a couple of the guys that were watching tv with me, said, gee, he's saying the things you've been saying...54/08... I said he won't last long, the guy's either dying or going to prison, mark my words...and he's in prison right now... 54/17...   ...and I knew he was going, there was absolutely no doubt in my mind...   54/22... and various little things, for example, I know my attny. all of our attnys. thought gee whiz, we've got a hell of a case. They're going to overturn this on appeal.. ...we've got so many issues, bla, bla, bla, and I knew, I knew what was going to happen ...54/38... you know sometimes I let myself hold a little bit of false hope...I remember I told my attny. ...we had a three judge panel on the appelate court,He said, what do you think's going to happen? ... I said well, two judges are going to vote against us and one's going to vote for us...and I was confident of this... 55/02... ...He said, well, what makes you think that? I said, well, I've studied Masonry , and I've studied the political system in this country. And I said, I know that's what's going to happen. He said, I don't think so, I think we're going to win this sure thing...I said, well soon enough we'll know...and sure enough it came back , two to one against us...he said, well, we're going to get an embank hearing... ...I said, what's an embank hearing?...55/31... I never heard of it before...he said we'll have nine judges...I said, well, we'll end up with the same, thing, I said, four of em will vote in our favor ...I said , five of them will vote aginst us...I said, they always run it close like this to give you hope...55/46... (CUT W/GET THE MINORITY OPINION OF THIS APPEAL) ...they want you to have hope, they don't want you to take other action...they want you to hope that the system will help you, hope that the law will protect you in the long run, hope that justice will win...55/56...and uh, it just so happened that one of the judges couldn't make it, so we had an eight judge panel, and he asked me right before we got the decision, he asked me, what do you think is going to happen? I said, well, ...56/09... ...I said since we've only got eight, three will vote for us, four against us , and that's exactly what happened...56/15... (CUT W/MARK STAGG) ...and the think about it is, after you're right about it so many times, consistently, when you analyze political activities and you say this is going to happen or that's going to happen, I mean luck can play a part. in your guess, well, after a while, at least for me, I'm pretty convinced , I understand how the system works...56/39...   END OF YORI INTERVIEW     ... CREDITS with interviews of... Joan Kahl Yorie Kahl Lynn Crooks Toots Mathis Dennis Fisher John Noah Irv Nodland Bill Kennelly Prof. Ed Gran Jack McLamb Delores Everts Scarlet Skiftu Herman Widicker August Pankow Victor Seil Marlys Klimek Ron Perleberg Len Martin Brad Kapp Robert Holiday Tom Lee Ed Fitzpatrick Gene Nail Buford Terrell Marlene Gaysek Bob Ralston Darrel Graf Steve Schnabel Jack Swan Loreen Dyck Lorna/Loreen Mark Stagg Sheriff Ray Weatherby Jack Miller cinematography Tracy Adams Allison Hoffman Jeffrey F. Jackson production design Jim Haddon Peter Lloyd film editing Tracy Adams Martyn Hone Jeffrey F. Jackson original music by Tracy Adams sound department Tracy Adams Jeffrey F. Jackson stunts Rex Reddick produced by Jeffrey F. Jackson Angela Kaye writing by Jeffrey F. Jackson directed by Jeffrey F. Jackson CHRONOLOGY A timeline of the life of Gordon Kahl, from early childhood interests, to his marriage to Joan Kahl, his decorated military experience, his outspoken tax protest, the Medina shootout, and his unusual death in Arkansas in 1983. REVIEWS VARIETY /   Indie documaker Jeffrey F. Jackson sticks it to the IRS and the Feds in "Death & Taxes," a hard-hitting reinvestigation of the 1983 Gordon Kahl case, about which questions still linger. Jackson's unfazed, investigative reporting-style approach and inventive handling of familiar material make this a controversial item for fests and progressive webs. Non-U.S. viewers will also get a charge out of its conspiracy theme. read more CHRONICLES MAGAZINE /   Gordon Kahl was a simple farmer who became famous for not filing income tax returns. Imprisoned and hounded by IRS agents who never did prove he owed any amount of money, Kahl and his son were involved in a shootout with police. The son is still serving a prison sentence, but the father was surrounded and shot in Arkansas by police officers who mutilated and burned his body. read more GUNS & AMMO /   A new video documentary, Death & Taxes, details a case of government murderously out of control that was briefly mentioned in the October 1994 Guns & Ammo article "The Ugly Truth About Gun Control." Death & Taxes is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer and decorated World War II veteran, and his apparent death at the hands of federal agents. read more

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This set of 6 DVD's comprises over 13 hours of uncut footage, including a 2+ hour prison interview with Yorie Kahl, and candid interviews with wife Joan Kahl. In this rich stockpile of research, you'll find many more threads than could reasonably be pursued in the final feature. A little-known fact regarding Death & Taxes is the surprising connection to Timothy McVeigh and the ATF / Oklahoma City Bombing. Here's a clip of Jackson sharing the story during a director's commentary on his film Postal Worker. The story of Gordon Kahl so captured the attention of mainstream America that it was turned into a highly-rated made-for-television movie titled In The Line of Duty - Manhunt In The Dakotas.

DEATH & TAXES is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer who became America's "most-wanted" fugitive. How had a WWII war hero become the target of one of the largest manhunts in FBI history?

Was Kahl a racist, gun-toting fanatic? Or a victim of an IRS policy of harassing vocal tax protestors into silence to keep the rest of us intimidated? Did Bill Clinton conspire to cover-up the torture and execution of Gordon Kahl in Arkansas? Did federal agents mutilate and burn the body to cover-up the murder of the wrong man? DEATH & TAXES follows the trail of Gordon Kahl as his body is exhumed for a new autopsy. Building on newsreel clips covering two fiery shootouts and hundreds of interviews -- with IRS agents and federal prosecutors as well as Kahl's family and supporters -- D&T explores the myths and controversies surrounding a man who dared to challenge the federal income tax system. Some revile Kahl as a cop killer. Others revere him as an American patriot. Which was he?