INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPTS

Len Martin

TAPE #07:13:40

14/45... when I came out of college, I taught school for twelve years...

and then things started to happened...I got involved with single people

...cause I was divorced... and I got to looking at taxes and noticed that

single person was paying more than a couple with two children... so then

I wrote a book called "The Alien World of the Single Adult"...15/46...

and then I went to washington, foolishly thinking I could get things

done in two weeks... I started asking these congressmen questions... the

third time I would stop in to see them, they would say, "when are you

going home?" I said, well I don't know, what's the use of going home,

when we don't have a future... I got a job as a waiter 16/40 ...and people

from all over the world came in there and I learned a lot... but five days

a week I was up in congress , mainly in the house of reps... because the

reps are campainging constantly, the senators aren't worried as much...

17/30 ... they said, gee you sound alot like liberty lobby... I looked

em up and read about this stuff and the more I read the more it scared me...

18/00 ...I asked, do you ever hire anybody... I started out writing speeches

at a $150 per month, by the end of six months I was making $10,500. I

ended up writing four or finve radio scripts a week...

19/11... well I don't exactly know how I met him...he was, he was always

in the community, you've always lived there, he was born seven miles away,

went to small school seven miles away...he was four years older than I was...so

... 19/38... the orchestra he used to play piano for used to play in the

local dancehall... and thru that we became friends... I knew his wife much

better, we were in confirmation class together, her brother and I were on

the threshing crew together...

MARTIN#07/13

20/13 ...it wasn't till about six months before the attack, I was teaching

in a Christian school in the little town of Ashley, ND... and Scott Faul,

one of the person's that's in prison now walked in and said, heh, I've got

somebody I'd like you to meet, Gordon Kahl, I just about fell to the floor...it

didn't seem like the same Gordon Kahl , here was a man that was to me and

to quite a few patriots quite a famous person, he was not widely known,

otherwise they may not have tried to pull what they did.... 20/52...

then I spent a lot of time together, we talked about the problems, ...I

said , I'm well aware I lived with jews for forty years in washinton and

they were exposing to me from the inside what was going on in Israel and

in America...he saz yep, and the Masons. I looked at him and said, the

Masons? and after he pointed out a few things, things started to fall into

place, heh, this makes sense, and then I started checking, from that, and

he taught me a lot, before the attack, times we were together, and evidently

he was a pretty good teacher and the things I learned after that... because

a person that has read the book Portrait of a Bastard came out he said,

I was a 33rddegree Mason till I found out what it was all about....he said

if I was to write about Masonry, I would write about it word for word the

way you did...sooo 22/00...

but, his son Yori has pointed out, and this gets back to what Gordon

Kahl told me, the very first day we got together...Yori says yes, the jews

are the root of the problem but they're not the danger right now, ...he

says, it's the masons, for this reason, many, many people across america

realize the problem of the jews, ...when I say the jews and masons, Gordon

Kahl was very careful to point out the high degree of masons and the elite

jews, the big shots...the point is many people do know...22/50... the problems

that the jews are creating, but they do not know the part the masons are

playing...this is what makes it so dangerous...if you don't know the enemy...23/03...

23/10... it was just about six months before, when he got back to ND...so

long, it just seemed like another life, when we were back there in Sykeston,

it doesn't seem real what happened back then, course those were the tough

times, back during the dirty thirties...during the depresssion, we didn't

have the slightest idea what was going on, but still we had good times,

we survived, our parents helped each other...you don't have quite that friendliness

that you have now, the people you have in the metropolitan areas...

24/18... it's a different world we're living in now... now , it's like

boht of us have gotten on the same team , Gordon had learned a lot more

and a lot faster than I did, earlier...

25/20 well, I don't know how far back, but when he was an instructor,

before he was discharged, ...well, it happened by golly back in Italy...

they would unload cargo from a ship and they would load Jews on the ship...25/42...

and he asked some of the jews that were in his company, where were they

going, ...of course they could all talk yiddish,... he said they're going

to America, they 're just loading on the ship going to america...he said,

well they're escaping from Hitler...

26/20... then when he got bqack to the US, one of the officers who was

under him, used to come in every morning, must boiling....and he had the

washington post and he showed gordon, the jews who had come to america from

europe... they had the names and then they changed their names to miller

and like that and they got instant citizenship...27/00...

so uh, at least by that time, things were starting to stir in Gordon's

mind, then he, one you get your toe wet, one thing leads to another...then

most of us ...who are causing the problems, not what, but who are causing

the problems...27/33...and uh, then being a very independent person and

very analytical... he wouldn't go in for the farm programs... he was on

one and then he got out of it and paid off the farm...28/04

MARTIN#07/13

28/18... okay, this is very interesting,... after Gordon and I got together,

things started to jell... there were a few patriots here and there, we got

together at a meeting, gordon wasn't back yet...we had 70 people, which

is a pretty good number... our second meeting held at Bismark we had 90

people...heh, all of a sudden people are starting to get together, starting

to get organnized...course our enemy, they don't want that, people getting

together and learning some facts...Gordon was at that meeting...

...and every meeting after that...29/24...then we started planning,

most of the work...

MARTIN#07/13

they said gordon was a tax rebel... at then and now, the emphasis of

what we were trying to do was to stop the farm foreclosures... six meeting

were planned... the first meeting was set up at Wishok, ND...it was set

for the 20th of february, and how could they stop this organizing, aha,

one of the people, Gordon Kahl, had a misdeamenor... of course later, we

found out the warrant that they had was faulty...but, that's what they had

based it on... so this was just too ironic that this happened one week after

the first meeting was scheduled...30/53...

(CUT W/GRAF TALKING ABOUT MEETINGS)

MARTIN#07/13

...we had people coming in to tell the farmers every avenue they could

pursue to save their farms, well this was going to cause quite a problem

for the money lenders...we heard later that 200 hog-raisers were coming

to the first meeting... you can imagine, you get this many people aroused,

this would have been tough for the enemy forces to cope with....

END TAPE O7:31:42

LEN MARTIN INTERVIEW:

TAPE #08/00

1/15... it was my suspicion that they didn't want this meeting to take

place...

1/37... they tried to tell the public, the news media was saying , that,

deputy sheriff noticed Gordon at the meeting and so he alerted the US Marshals,

well, this is a bunch of baloney that that was what precipitated the whole

thing, because two, the , that deputy marshal and the police of chief of

medina had been, admitted they had been kind of watching Gordon when he

came to the meetings that were held in medina, monthly...and in fact, the

chief of police of medina had been to at least one meeting, maybe two and

he was at the meeting at Ashley, one week prior to the attack...2/37...

...now he and the deputy, all of a sudden noticed that GK's car was

in town...the meeting was set up the following week in medina, this was

public knowledge... the reason that precipitated the attack, was a big fat

lie to start with....but the news media portrayed this,... they said that

he had violated parole...3/36...

...well there's some mitigating circumstances there, GK could have gotten

out of prison after one month if he would have done one two three four,

he said, un, uh, when I walk out of here I'm going to be free man, so he

served eight months which in the federal prison system is a year...4/04...

...so he came home, all of a sudden a parole officer shows up... un,

uh, when he walked out, he was a free man, at least that was his understanding

(CUT W/BROOM POINTING TO GK's signature on prob paper)

...so they said they had a warrant from texas... and I brought this up

with Bud warren, who admitted, I've learned a lot, since I got invovled

with this, I asked Bud Warren, he said, there are a few marshals left in

america, but they are getting fewer and fewer right alone, the FBI isn't

as bad, but it's getting that way... and ...05/00

...he felt that warrant was lawful and I pointed out, heh, ...one state

will issue it and ask the officials of another state, he said this is federal

, after he realized that each state is a nation in itself, he said, I can

see it isn't valid now...

...5/30...but you see when the news media tells the public and that's

all they hear, they're going to believe that...

(CUT W/ MEDIA COVERAGE)

5/48 ...I hadn't met Bud until sometime after the trial was over... I

went to washington... snooped around, talked with aides, they knew about

this, but , they're edgy about talking about it... one , how come you have

such a deep interest in this... his experience had taught him to be pretty

leary of anybody and everybody...He said I didn't trust you, but I didn't

distrust you either... when bud lived he had quite an impact ...

8/05... it's ironic the night before I'd been at David and Joni Broerers

and they said, why don't you stay and spend the night and ride up with us

tomorrow, but for some reason i felt I had to go back and do some school

work ,,, ...otherwise I would have been in the car with them and I probably

would have been in prison too... 8/48...

8/50...anyway, at the meeting, there were very few people there, this

was very strange, so many had been to the meeting the week before, the

oddest thing was the chief of police wasn't there... David Broer had asked

him earlier in the week if he was going to be there and he said, yeah, I'll

be there, but he wasn't at the meeting...

9/33...

...when the meeting was over someone, I'm not sure who, noticed a pickup

down the street and one person with binoculars was watching the meeting...

Dave Broer thought this was kind of funny and he said, I'm going to call

the chief of police and he talked with him for a while... 10/08...

(CUT W/GRAF TALKING ABOUT THE TELE. CONVERSATION) ...

...then they hung up and he called back again, it was about an APB on

Scott Faul's car... Scott's car wasn't there and the whole thing seemed

pretty fishy... but the oddest part of the whole thing was the chief of

police wasn't at the meeting...

10/44... Yorie says, they might be after you dad...he says, nahh, Yori,

we've been thru this so many other times, it's just another false alarm...

they weren't worried, cause,....Gordon was off parole, now it's important,

this point right here is very, very important...11/11...

...when the one marshal was on the stand, wigglesworth, the one that

ran from the site, he was asked by the defense attny., if the parole period

ends, does the warrant die. and well then, well there would have been no

warrant, because the parole period had ended the previous June, I guess

it was.. the prosecuting attny. objected...and Benson didn't let him answer...

that would have killed the whole case right there...12/04...

...they had Bud Warren on the stand and they asked him the same thing,

I object, I object, they had a conference, up around the judge and judge

benson said, you don't have to answer that... now you can just about be

sure, ...well, one of the defense counsel asked... oh I've got to jump back...

12/46... this is very important, the point about...the parole, because

at the trial, one on the marshals, wigglesworth, one of the four that attacked

Gordon out there in the group. ON the stand was asked by the defense attny.,

if the parole period ends, does the warrant die. And the marshal Wigglesworth

said , well, noo, a court has to give an order...so the defense atty says

well is it a rule, where did you get this... I object, Benson sustained...

13/40 ... and then when Bud Warren took the stand, the marshal that

didn't go out there, the same question was asked of him. I object, Benson

sustained. So, you can be sure if such a rule that the warrant was still

alive, that the prosecutors would have brought this out. Cause this would

have strengthened their case. but if they didn't have it, it would have

blown the case open... Anybody can get this right out of the court transcipt...

15/03 ... they would say, well, what's happening? we're not getting

anything in the news. so we started publishing... but the days I didn't

go to the trial...I got a blow by blow account...

15/50... (DEFINITION OF A PATRIOT)

...well, I would say a patriot puts the interest of america first and

follows the constitution... a lot of people would say the constitution is

outdated but if they check they'll find out the problems are created from

deviating from it... times change, yes, but principals do not change...16/15...

...a patriot would be someone who puts the interst of america first...

16/41 ...blowing their own horn, doing their own thing...one organization...somebody

gets a gimmick...if you really want to make some money make religious organization...so

are considered destroyers... some say, lets cooperate, you join me... my

...17/50... my writing style seems to be effective...where the average

person can read it... I keep the books short enough, so that people say

heh, it won't take long to read that... we realize we're not god... if it's

something that's good we help them... we've been accepted by almost all

of them...

18/38 ... but there is a move towards cooperating but it's too slow...

consequently the odds of stopping the enemy aren't great...although there

are some things happening... although the enemy is moving ahead too...

20/02 ... they don't condone it. but, there are many that say that

the only way that the enemy is going to be stopped is thru a certain amount

of bloodshed...they hope to keep it to a minimum, ...

(CUT W/OLD DOC IN ARK.)

but and many of the people, I don't have to agree with that, but, maybe

with the threat that if you don't stop there's going to have to be some

killing, that the threat might stop them from their aggressive actions...20/37...

the thing is I don't even own a gun...I would have to admit that there

may be a time where that is absolutely necessary...20/50...

21/12 I visited Gordon's home many times and Gordon had a couple three

guns...Yori was a gun fancier, antiques... as far as an arsenal... a school

board member where I teach had more guns in his basement that Gordon did...this

is just some more of...

MART2

21/45...people will believe anything if you just tell em one side of

the story and that's what the news media was doing... 21/52...

(CUT W/GUNS & NEWS MEDIA COVERAGE)

MART2

22/04 .... first there was tax protestor... if you only tell one side

of the story people are going to believe it...and of course, not knowing

the facts about income tax, pe0ple are going to say that's terrible... and

of course there's the posse Comitatus and they make that sound like a bad

organization... 22/32...

Now when I was interviewed over KFYR here after Jim Corcoran was interviewed,

I pointed out that if Jim C. was hororable in his intentions about the book

he could have told the truth about the Posse Comitatus ...are all men and

women are members of the posse comitatus who can be called to serve by the

county sheriff... law school article pointed out that congress passed and

congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878

...24/14...it was printed in the ND Law Review ...Corcoran was either

ignorant or lying ...anybody that uses the posse is either ignorant or has

evil intent...

...25/23 ... my thoughts about Bitter Harvest...they say he was teaching

back East... I think he was commissioned to do that...because GK was dying

out here... we're happy that he wrote that because it's so full of lies...

27/45 ... the thought was that when Yori brought up they might be after

him... Yori said, why take any questions... the thought was to get him home...

why would the marshals come out on a Sunday for a lousy misdemeanor? Maybe

it was some of the local boys trying to make a name for themselves... first

of all Yori said, heh, dad let's change jackets...Yori put on his dad's...

so I gave him my brown stockingcap... Gordon looked at me and shook hands

and never said a word... he got in the car...I followed them West, the two

cars went north and I went on 17 miles south and I waited for Dave Broer

to come back...from taking Gordon home... and when he got back in, he told

his daughters to go upstairs and he said six of em are dead. Any of ours,

no, but Yori was shot up pretty bad... this is very interesting, they were

charged with conspiracy to attack the marshals. And I was there, why wasn't

I supoened? Why wasn't I charged? 29/59...

...I gave Gordon my cap, why didn't they charge me? I think they figured,

and I brought this out...that maybe I wouldn't have hired a lawyer...30/12...

...Maybe ...I'd spent six years in washinton, maybe I would have upset

the apple cart. They were just interested in getting a conviction...they

had the attitude, let's forget about everything, two marshals are dead and

somebodies got to pay for it... and then two, I've pulled a couple of publicity

stunts, so I'm pretty well known in ND... I went to Washngton by horse and

bicycle and I walked around with a monkey on my shoulder, Get this monkey

off my back, the IRS...I hit the Paul Harvey Program...then I have a brother

who's well known and liked, educator in ND...with his contacts, with my

facing prison,... a little too risky...why didn't they charge me with conspiracy

...I had more reason than Mrs. Kahl...31/20...

END TAPE

LEN MARTIN INTERVIEW:

MARTIN#10

2/09...well, the GK trial for people who understand the way juries are

supposed to operate and the way the jury operated in the trial of the medina

victims, the people would have to say that this was a miscarriage of justice...

...2/37...why does Judge Paul Benseon or any judge wear a black robe?

The president doesn't have a special gown...a senator or a politician doens't

have a special gown to carry out his duties...why does a judge or judge

benson, what is the significance of this...2/57...

...it is one jewish, honorable jewish, lawyer and he was a mason, after

two days I spent with him, he said the black robe is the symbol of satan...3/17...

...he said if you ever tell anybody I said it, I'll deny it...but he

said that is the way it is,...so here is judge benson running the trial

in a satanic manner following , it's legal but it's not lawful...and there's

a lot of difference,....legal is what lawyers make it and lawful is under

our consitution...now there is a move...and more and more people are seeing

that this is the only way to stop it...a lot of people say oh,...3/48...

...if you do this you can stop the IRS, if you do this you can win in

court ...there have been a few vitories, but by in large they lose...and

whterher it's a farm case or IRS or whatever, the only reason they lose

is because of manipulation by the judge...juries have merely become tools...4/19...

...they are uninformed. I have masters degree from college and I came

out an uneducated idiot, we have none of this...no knowledge of the things

like this...so there's quite a move now , more people are realizing that

the only that people are going to get justice is a return to the way justice

was when our country was founded...

...4/43...and points to be made in this and we have talked to a lot

of people and they say, heh, that makes a lot of sense...

...4/52...and here are the key points, forst of all in any jury trial,

the judge is nothing more than just a chairman...the jury is the judge...and,

these are the points that would be necessary to return justice to the people

in a court case. The jury is picked by lottery in full view of the public,

because all trials are to be public....and what is more important to a trial

than the picking of the jury...5/36...

...now in the GK case, there wasn't one juror in the northern part of

the state, not one person was picked from the northern third of the state,

they were all picked from the southern two thirds...there wasn't one from

the big city of Grand Forks or the medium size city of Devils Lake. But

there are two jurors from the little town of Hope. quite a coincidence.

there were two from aquitas? which is about 1200 people which is still quite

a small city...6/23...

...Hankinsen, ND, two jurors from that city and it's ironic that Hankinsen

is also the hometown of prosecuting attny. Lynn Crooks....it's also the

hometown of one of the lady marshals based in Fargo...6/44...

...from that at least you would suspect that the jury was stacked...after

the jury has been selected, the jury must be told that they have the right

to judge the law as well as the fact, and there's supreme court decisions

right down the line as recent as 1972 that say the jury has the right to

judge the law as well as the facts...7/14...

...Bensen in his 70 page instructions told the jury, they would determine

the facts according to the law as he determined it...7/24...

(CUT W/COURT DOCUMENTS)

...and it is brought out, various people have mentioned that their friends

were on the jury and they were told, that they felt the fellows was innocent,

but they felt that they were obligated to follow the judges instructions...7/45...

(CUT W/JUROR COMMENTS)

...the jury is the judge, not judge benson, he is supposed to just be

the chairman...okay this is the second point that is necessary to return

jusitice to the people, third...8/02...

...the trial, if either party requests, all proceedings must be recorded

on a court provided audio machine and if either party request they can bring

in their own tape recorders, at the end of each day the tapes have to be

exchanged before either of them leave the court, because it's been pointed

out, if the court reporter hits 90 to 95% they figure this is pretty good

reporting...there is a lot of distorting of information...this would eliminate

that...and then two the defendent has the right to counsel of choice...8/59...

...that counsel can come from the bar assoc. or the general public,

whichever he feels will best serve his needs...says right in the constitution

he has the right to cousel of choice... if they'd have meant it to be a

lawyer, they'd have written it in there as so...9/17...

...and then two, anyone who has had much experience in court, can determine,

that, especially, either the lending institutions, large corps. or the govt.

invovled, 98 to 99% of the time they lose...9/41...

...about 98% of those who hire lawyers are sold out by lawyers...9/48...

(CUT TO JOAN BADRAPPING LAWYERS)

...they're afraid of losing their licenses to practise, there's where,

there are many people who have studied the law who would do a better job

of representing that person...so it's a matter of choice...10/03...

...you don't have to have a lawyer...alright, there's a fourth one here...

...10/10...all lines of questioning and all evidence must be allowed

and this it says in the constitution, that the jury, the defendent has the

right to present to the jury...in the Kahl case, Benson, time after time,

supported, when the defense wanted to bring up certain points, the prosecutors

would object and BEnson would back them up...so there were important lines

of questioning that were not allowed. For instance...10/51...

...one of the marshals, was caught lying on the stand, the defense attny

wanted to put this newspaper article that showed this into the evidence,...the

prosecutors objected, Benson backed them up...11/13...

...right down the line, so, uh, if, this would have been in effect,

they would have had no chance in the world of convicting those two boys.

As it was, the one point did it....where the jurors said, we felt the fellows

were innocent, not all of them, but some of them said that, ...we felt the

fellows were innocent but we felt obligated to follow Judge Benson's instructions...11/43...

...and the thing is, it's not just affecting the boys in prison, the

same way with farm foreclosures. right down the line, if you're facing court,

you're facing a person wearing the symbol of Satan and whether he's a mason

or not, he's obligated to follow that line...12/04...

...and, uh, this was told to me, very important, it was told to me by

a retired judge not far from fargo, it involves the actions of a subversive

judge over there, most of them are,...whether intentionally or not, they're

still subverting our country...well this retired judge...12/36...\

...I'd asked him, one time, what is the basis of common, he said that's

what our country was founded on, until the judge/lawyer gang screwed it

all up...12/48...

...well, then I was confronting one judge he said, there's no doubt

that most of the laws that judges enforce are unconstitutinoal, but if they

didn't do it, they'd be out without a job...now is that a good excuse for

them to sell out their country? But that's what happened right here. He

was willing to go along selling out his country, which is Benson I'm talking

about, just for the prestige and there is another thing that GK brought

out...all his studies showed that no...13/34...

...mason can get above the third degree unless they have something bad

to blackmail him on... what do they have on Benson to blackmail him that

he would do such a terrible thing...13/47...

...14/00...the information, Benson of course, Lynn Crooks mason, wearing

his ring. And Fisher is jewish...most of those would fall under the masonic

class. The clerk of the court I understand was jewish...the uh, court reporter

I think was jewish. And then the clerk of the court was an Eastern Star,

a woman...the defense attnys were either masons and if they weren't sure,

then their partners were masons, which would involve them, so the whole

court was masonic and the boys being tried there were Christians...14/55...

...you're supposed to be tried by a jury of your peers, but, they're

influenced by this whole masonic setup...there'd be no justice...now there

is one thing that is very imperitive and this is having a tremendous effect

on the whole US. and that's the matter of jurisdiction...15/20...

...according to the constitution, the federal govt. has jurisdiction

over the ten square miles of the District of Columbia. the territories and

any land that is officially sold or seeded to the fed. govt. by the state

legislature. This land north of medina where the attack took place is not

in fed. hands, okay, but then when it comes to the trial, they say well

it involved federal officials. And I've cited the court case, I think it's

in the Attack On GK in Medina, that it isn't who is involved, but it's where

the act takes place...16/10...

...I was quite lengthy on this, a lawyer, Larry Beecrafter cited case

after case on why it was decided the way it was, was it the fed govt. or

was it the state...

...17/03...yes, a lot of it is specualtion...

MARTIN#10

...17/14...Bud Warren testified on the stand that Marshal Muir had gotten

a telephone call, a wire and a letter from the headquarters, of the US Marshals

in Washinton, that to leave GK alone, to spend no more time and money on

such a minor case...so why did Muir do it?... 17/38...

(CUT W/ COURT TRANSCRIPTS & BUD'S LETTER)

...I guess, you would say his ego or whatever, well he had a lot of

ego and in a lot of ways he wasn't too nice of a guy, but, there are people

that I know , that the thurday before the attack had met Muir in a restaurant,

said, Hiya Bud, how you doing? Oh okay I guess, I'll sure be glad, I've

got two more years and I'll retire. Something had to be worrying that man...18/10...

...he had to have orders from higher up for him to go out there like

that...there are various things that have been pointed out , maybe they're

correct, maybe they're not. But I'm pretty careful of what I write, so I'm

not going to say what they are. And then there are a lot of things that

if I mention them would blow the lid on some possible future investigation...18/40...

(CUT W/ MCLAMB'S MYSTERIOUS STUFF AND EARL JONES)

...18/45...oh, that's what I'm talking about, the GK bit, what took

place before the trial, before the shooting, the, what transpired after

that, all the way thru the trial and even since...

...19/06...oh, yes, we did a video down there in arizona, Jack is a

knowledgable person...

...19/18...it all boils down to, again, why were they out there? Why

did they break every rule and experience to go out there like they did?

...there had to be, it appears that they were intentionally setting up a

violent confrontation...19/41...

(CUT W/VICTOR SAYING, "HEARD THEY'D BEEN DRINKING GOING OUT ON A

PICNIC, ...WELL THEY GOT A PICNIC)

...19/45...because they could have taken Gordon any time. and on the

stand, this marshal wigglesworth was confronted by one of the defense attnys.,

isn't it true that in a , especially in a misdemeanor like this, that if

there is a confrontation and talk going on, that you are to withdraw...

...I'm almost sure that's another case where they objected...

...20/38...all right, to start off with,...there was only one person

that shot, who was shot with a pistol. This was in the fargo forum, brought

out in court. That It was Marshal Muir with the five shots that he had taken,

that was the only pistol that was shot. And there was a pistol shot, bullet

embedded in yori's gun that showed up at the end of the trial. Now if it

was a highpowered rifle it would have simply shattered that thing. It was

just embedded there, which virtually proves that it was a pistol and the

only person shot was Muirs' so he had to fire the first shot. ...21/35...

...why didn't they, Judge Benson, allow all of the attorneys to question,

to bring out points, or question people about this. Benson wouldn't allow

it...21/52...

...because it would have proved that Muir fired the first shot and everything

after that that happened, was in self defense...there's a marine from carrington

ND, a rifle and gun expert that testified on the stand, he said the first

shot was a pistol...22/20...

(CUT W/ LANENGA)

...shot, it was very easy to tell the difference between the two...and

then too, four people that were in the trailer house just a short distance

away, all of them testified that the first shot came from the south. One

of them says the south or the southeast. So we did a little experiment.

We got a trailer just about that same size and one fellow, with a mini-14,

the same pistol that Yori had, and a there were three of us, it was thanksgiving

and I couldn't get too many of us, but there was two beside myself in the

trailer. Now I made out the pattern, where the shots were going to come

from , and I couldn't be sure where they're coming from and the other two

were only right three times and we all were listening carefully for the

shot...That first shot those people in the trailer would not have been listening

carefully...23/26...

...and the first shot that we were at, I wasn't sure where it came from,

the other two, one said it came from the NW and one said it came from the

W, the shot actually came from the East...23/43...

...so, it , you would suspect that their testimony was faulty, about

where that first shot came from ...

...oh I think they all were, I mean they had all the time in the world

to build a case, You had the people who could have done something, they

were locked behind doors and harrassed...what happened to these boys and

I've got it in The Attack on GK in Medina, they set out to frame them and

harrass, did all types of harrassment to hamper any defense...24/28...

...

...24/43...well, number one, he had been under sedation,...

(CUT W/ PERLEBERG)

... number two, I don't care what govt. officials it is, I would suspect

their word... Because heh, they want to put food on the table so they're

going to go along with the govt. They're under that pressure. If you don't

testify to this, you 're not going to get a grant, you're not going to do

this, they can use tremendous pressure against a person and the only defense

you have against that type of thing is a jury. A jury not under the thumb

of people like Benson...25/25...

...25/34...well it's in both of them, ...this last one is about the

court case (BENSON POTRAIT OF A BASTARD) , and about the kingpin, the main

character in it, Judge Paul Benson, and I didn't pick that name to be dirty,

actually the word isn't dirt, it's in the bible many, quite often...

...26/02...I had a dream, I woke up after about an hours sleep and I

never had such a funny feeling in my life...why I would dream about it,

I could see picture just as plain as can be, JUDGE PAUL BENSON, PORTRAIT

OF A BASTARD. And I says, heh, it's got to be, with god telling me that

I must write it, what is it? I never had such a funny feeling over my whole

body. So I went down to the doughnut shop and laid out the whole frame work...and

I thought I'm not going to write that whole book here in Nebraska, at least

not a little bit of it, I've got to do it in ND because he was supposed

to be tried where the crime was committed, if I committed a crime, for writing

this story, I want it to take place in ND where people can observe this...26/46...

...but, I'm not too concerned , becasue there's nothing in there that's

false...even the part about the masons. I was real happy, evidently GK did

a good job of instructing me, 33rd degree mason says, I'd write it word

for word just the way you did. And everything else people can check, most

of it is right out of the trial...all they'd gotta do is check it...27/13...

...27/26...well, unfortuanately, his wife, is quite a story, she lost

control of the whole thing, she was a star, calls were coming in from all

over the US, and when I went to move to Moorhead, why all the calls were

coming in there. I was putting out the court update for em, and she was

really enjoying the limelight, but she wasn't really getting the attention.

Mrs. kahl would be the one that people would go over and talk to. If you

were to ask, now Dave Broer is a swell guy, patriotic as you can be...at

least from what I know...if you were to mention dave broer hardly anyone

in ND would recognize the name, if you were to mention GK , okay...28/33...

...that would be recognizable, people would stand up and take notice,

so the fact that Mrs. kahl was getting the attention, this is understandable

and this is where you build from, you build from there...so this is ...it

has caused a lot of problems, believed her...so, but she's out completely

now, she's divorced and married someone else...29/09...

....

...29/20...well, I think that when gordon was becoming very active in

trying to preserve a decent country for his kids to live in and for everyone

else, she was being a dutiful wife, she wasn't involved, she would just

as soon that he didn't do this, but being a dutiful wife she stuck right

with him...and after this happen, I've heard her say many times, Gordon

was right, everything gordon said is right...29/55...

(CUT WITH OTHERS SAYING "EVERYTHING GK SAID IS COMING TRUE)

...if people across america, especially in ND could see the enemy forces

the way Mrs. Kahl has seen them, there'd be a revolution before morning....they'd

hang every judge in the state...and most lawyers...30/15...

...now many many lawyers do not like what's going on, but if they want

to put food on the table they go along with it, otherwise they lose their

license...30/29...

...

END TAPE @ #10:31:18

CREDITS

with interviews of...

Joan Kahl
Yorie Kahl
Lynn Crooks
Toots Mathis
Dennis Fisher
John Noah
Irv Nodland
Bill Kennelly
Prof. Ed Gran
Jack McLamb
Delores Everts
Scarlet Skiftu
Herman Widicker
August Pankow
Victor Seil
Marlys Klimek
Ron Perleberg
Len Martin
Brad Kapp
Robert Holiday
Tom Lee
Ed Fitzpatrick
Gene Nail
Buford Terrell
Marlene Gaysek
Bob Ralston
Darrel Graf
Steve Schnabel
Jack Swan
Loreen Dyck
Lorna/Loreen
Mark Stagg
Sheriff Ray Weatherby
Jack Miller

cinematography

Tracy Adams
Allison Hoffman
Jeffrey F. Jackson

production design

Jim Haddon
Peter Lloyd

film editing

Tracy Adams
Martyn Hone
Jeffrey F. Jackson

original music by

Tracy Adams

sound department

Tracy Adams
Jeffrey F. Jackson

stunts

Rex Reddick

produced by

Jeffrey F. Jackson
Angela Kaye

writing by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

directed by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

CHRONOLOGY

A timeline of the life of Gordon Kahl, from early childhood interests, to his marriage to Joan Kahl, his decorated military experience, his outspoken tax protest, the Medina shootout, and his unusual death in Arkansas in 1983.

REVIEWS

VARIETY / Indie documaker Jeffrey F. Jackson sticks it to the IRS and the Feds in "Death & Taxes," a hard-hitting reinvestigation of the 1983 Gordon Kahl case, about which questions still linger. Jackson's unfazed, investigative reporting-style approach and inventive handling of familiar material make this a controversial item for fests and progressive webs. Non-U.S. viewers will also get a charge out of its conspiracy theme. read more

CHRONICLES MAGAZINE / Gordon Kahl was a simple farmer who became famous for not filing income tax returns. Imprisoned and hounded by IRS agents who never did prove he owed any amount of money, Kahl and his son were involved in a shootout with police. The son is still serving a prison sentence, but the father was surrounded and shot in Arkansas by police officers who mutilated and burned his body. read more

GUNS & AMMO / A new video documentary, Death & Taxes, details a case of government murderously out of control that was briefly mentioned in the October 1994 Guns & Ammo article "The Ugly Truth About Gun Control." Death & Taxes is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer and decorated World War II veteran, and his apparent death at the hands of federal agents. read more