INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPTS

Tom Lee

START

TAPE #05:08:23

Tyronza cop car visual with Tom Less sitting in it...

09/30 ... I remember going home for supper that night and just as I went

in the door it was six oclock and I was going in the phone was ringing,

and I was told by the dispatcher for Lawrence county sheriff's dept. to

go out to this place...Leonard Ginter's place...I came to this roadblock

and was told to stay there...I stayed there apx. an hour, hour and a half

and then a unit another Lawrence county unit called me and asked if I knew

where to get any gas? and I told em I'll go back to Ravenden and get some

gas... this guy pulled off in a gravel truck and this other cop told me

this guy probably has some gas up at his house ...so I caught him and asked

him and he took me up there and gave me two five gallon cans, one with dieself

and one with gas ...

10/47 ...and I carried them back and down to the site of the house, where

GK was allegedly held up in, and I carried em to Fitz. , which was a CID

agent for the state police , I gave em to him and I joined a couple of st.

troopers over under the trees... we waited about 30-45 minutes , all this

time waiting for the FBI to decide what they wanted to do...

11/32 ...they wanted to try to put diesel, they wanted to put gas .

and we decided against gas cause it's liable to blow up in my face... put

diesel down the vent pipe, probably say 12 inch vent pipe with a rotary

on it...this place we was at was built like a bunker. all the house was

underneath a mound of dirt, just the front was all you could see... Steve

Huddleston and I carried it up... at first the FBI agent was going to try

to shoot the roter off, but he never could shoot it off...and there was

an old pick axe on top of , you can walk straight on top of the building

...I had the can, he had the pickaxe

12/51 ...he took the pickaxe and knocked the fan off...we moved back

from off the house...this same FBI agent was going to shoot the thing, well

he missed it. Huddleston, a trooper, he's pretty good shot, he shot two

holes in the can , and let the diesel run out into the vent pipe... during

this time already there was smoke coming out of the windows that was broke

in the front of the house...some say they couldn't tell whether it was fire

smoke or teargas, cause there'd been a world of teargas already put in it.

13/49 ...anyway the diesel ran down in there, and Huddleston and myself

went back up there and I guess I put, 3 0r 4 grenades down in it and I guess

Huddleston put about the same amount down in behind the dieesel, it was

just a few minutes before we had a pretty good fire...

14/16 ...and we just sat back and waited, but during the time all this

is transpiring, nobody would attempt to go up in,.. we tried to get em to

let us go up and look in there at the car port window, the door was about

half,...

14/50 ...they said no, it was too dangerous, if we would have went up

and looked, we could have seen where the body way laying, we'd a knew the

man was already dead, but they wouldn't let us do that so...15/01

...anyway the fire started, it burnt way into the night, a hell of a

storm came up, and ammunition was going off and dynamite was going off and

it was like WWIII all over again. After we got it burnt down, burnt out,

gutted the house, most of the fire was out. we called I think it was kSmithville

and ravenden, came out with their fire trucks and Smithville had two air

packs. Both men that were on their fire trucks were pretty good size men.

and myself and John Hitchcock, at that time, he was a dog handler...15/58

...

for Craighead kCounty, he was out there. and botht the airpacks they

had was small. So, Hitchcock and myself were two of the smallest out there,

so we put em on and went into the house. Went thru the , a pretty good

size picture window in the front, where during the gunfire it was out...we

went in and as I wwent in , I turned to the right and I could see the remains

of a body laying there. and I walked up to it, and as I looked down, I

could see a projectile...16/41 ...

...just barely coming out of the back of his head. I reached down and

picked it up and it was a projectile out of a 41 magnum gun, I carried it

and gave it to a state trooper by the name of Robert Speers...what he did

with it, it was put into evidence, who he turned it over to after that,

I don't know, anyway...

17/05 ...we got him up, got the body up and put him in a plastic bag,

put him in a stretcher, I guess they gave him a funeral, I don't know what

they did with him. but anyway, everybody left. anFBI agent asked Huddleston

and myself if we would stay there till 12:30, at that time they would have

two FBI agents relieve us and that's what we did, we stayed there til 12:30

and when they came and relieved us, that's all there was to it. ...

18/19 ...oh, I would guess 25 or 30, later on, between law enforcement

and media, it was probably a 100 to a 150 then...there was so many peoople

there, you didn't know who was what, you was just guesing who was a police

officer and who wasn't...a lot of police in uniforms...

19/22 ...no, I never did get any impression that was what they was trying

to do. The only thing I ever heard about that part of it, and this is strictly

hearsay, I was told when , see Gene Matthews was Sheriff, came out on his

own power, he walked out of the house and collapsed on that car port, I

was referring to , what I heard , was he said, I got the son of a bitch.

...19/53... just as he fell, but I never did hear anybody verify that statement,

I don't whether he actually said it or whether it was a rumor, but that's

what I heard. you hear anything when you're out in a place like that ...but

as far as I know,,, all the time they was talking about trying to get him

out....

20/21 ...I don't know where they come up with this idea...but somebody

had told em, there was an escape route in the house that came out underneath

the bank, out there in the woods somewhere...but it wasn't... that was assumption

that I guess they was going on when they burned the house. They didn't

know whether he was in the house , or whether he was back in this so-called

tunnel that wasn't there... that's the impression that I got from em...20/50

21/23 ...well see, I never did admit, cause I didn't pour the diesel

down, I set the diesel on top of the vent and the state trooper shot a hole

in it... well I guess according to their lawyer I was the only one that

telled the truth. That's the only reason they ever gave me, you know...when

they asked me, I told em. cause my attorney told me, tell em the truth

, tell em what happened and that's exactly what I did...

21/52 ...I never did, see we never did go to court, I never did read

anyone else's statement...I don't know what they told em...so I don't know

whether I was the only one telling the truth or not, cause I don't know

what anyone else told em...I just told em what I actually saw and what happened

in my presence...

22/21 ...yeahh, they, when it first came out...I know the next day when

I went up town and I hear people, a lot of people didn't know me when I

was out of uniform and I'd walk by and I'd hear people talking and if I

hadn't of been there, I wouldn't have knew what they was talking about...

it just got blowd out of proprtion that much...

22/44 ...ahh they was talking about using bazookas and all of that...that

we knew the man was dead and that we burnt the house to destroy evidence.

and that we mutilated the body. The body, the last I saw of the body, other

than being slumped down, you know when a body burns it shrinks. they said

part of it was missing. But when I saw , the last I saw of the body, there

wasn't any of it missing. ...and I think somebody claimed that there a part

of the leg, a part of the body, a part of the anckle or something was left

in the house. Well if he did, he had three, cause I had two of em. when

I put him in the sack...

23/39 ...when I tyook the bullet out of the back of the head, the only

thing about the body was it was real charred and shrunk. but as far as

any of the body organs or parts, it wasn't missing, everything was intact...

24/10 ...there wasn't anyting on the body when we got in there...the

only thing that really burnt in thehouse, was just more and less and the

inside of it...it didn't fall in, or nothing... the body it was just, now

it was a lot of ashes and things around the body but you can tell if it

was a mattress, you gonna get springs , you gonna get everything else.

there was nothing on top of it.

25/09 ...the only ting anybody ever told me, was during the Ginter trial

and I don't even know who he was. He walked up to me and , at that time

I was driving a white car . ...this guy he told me, one of these nights

when you're out on patrol, that white car can roll off one of these mountains.

Yea, and I said the son of abitch that pushes me is going with me. that

was all... ...well, I dind't call it a threat...it didn't bother me...I

didn't think anybody'd come after me...I'd be there if he wanted me.

26/13 ...well not really, the only thing, when I left ravenden and went

to work in walnut ridge, tthe reason Icame back downhere was becasue my

father in law died...she wanted us to come back down here, they kind of

insinuated...that last time I talked to these lawyers in HOuston, they couldn't

understand why I quit law enforcement... I quite law enforcemtn to drive

a truck...it didn't have anything to do with that case...I quit for personal

reasons. I had two or three trips down to little rock to give depostiions

...each time my expenses were paid but I had to miss work...I had a good

lawyer and I wasn't worried about it...

27/58 ..No I've heard three or four differentversions and I don't know

which is right...the only ting I ever heard about that is they said, one

of the marshals, I think a CID agent for the state, they was trying to say

shot matthews, that's all I ever heard...

28/41 ...well to me,, I worked for the county and the city... I had

heard rumors that Matthews wasn't well liked, but to me , the man never

did a thing to me, he was always nice to me, I had no reason to dislke him...no,no,

I don't put anyting into that rumor, I don't think that's right at all...

29/19 ...I think he got shot by Kahl and the ballastics got shot by Kahl,

so I've heard now , and the way he got hit, there wouldn't ahve been any

way for someone else to hit, Now I'm going by what I'm told... from where

he was hit, there's no way anybody could have shot him that vest, there's

no way anybody could have shot him and hit in that position...I didn' not

see Matthews body...alll I know is what I was told ...

END TAPE @ 05:31:00

TOM LEE INTERVIEW CONT:

START TAPE @ 06:00:00

00/13 ...(SOFT FOCUS) ...I just don't think it was run very good,you

know...I spent 10 years in the marine corps ...I think somebody should have

been able to go up there and look, before all this other deal took place...if

they'd a done that then all this other would have been eliminated, these

lawsuits...

...no, no, as you come in the house, in the front, yoiu come in the

livingroom, there was an off set, that came out four or five foot...there

was an ice box ,(GETS IN FOCUS) now what, I'm telling you what I saw...

where the body was laying, looking thru the front, you couldn't see it.

but, if you'd looked thru the carport door you couldhave seen it. But,

I was told that Kahl was standing back, kind of toward one of the bedrooms,

when Matthews came in, Matthew didn't see him, and he walked over there

right in front of this icebox I was talking about , and just as he turned

around he saw Kahl...and at that time, supposedly, what I been told, Kahl

shot him, he shot Kahl...

02/07 ...well, according to what I heard, I've never heard that,,, ballistics

proved that Kahl was shooting a 41 also, I may be mistaken...according to

what I heard the bullet that came out of ballistics matched the gun...

02/53 ...well, the way the house was laid out, you could ahve went up

in the carport area, without any great danger to you, because he would have

had to showed himself to get you and if there's a been two of you, one of

you could have got him, befored he'd got you...cause if he'd a stood up,

he'd a been framed right there in that door...I don't know if the glass

was in that door...if we'd a looked in, we coulda seen the body laying in

the position he was laying woulda been right in the view of that door.

03/49 ...well they oughta how not to...like I said everybody's got his

own opinion...to my opinion, like I said I was in Korea 28 months and in

the Marine Corps ten years . and that just didn't, what I'd been taught

didn't match...you made sure of what you're doing before you do it...that's

what I was always told to do, it didn't set on me too well, I won't say

it didn't set on me too well, it just didn't make any sense., going to all

the trouble we did, when you could have looked in the door and saw him...04/23...

04/29 ...well I thought his name was Jim King, FBI agent...I heard he

got transferred after all this...I think it's Jim King, well he read this

other name off , does this sound like the right man, I said, I never did

introduce myself to him, the only thing I ever heard him called was Jim...

05/09 ...well I knew, that he was pointed out to me...all I everheard

him called was Jim, but undoubtedly I was wrong...that lawyer told me that

wasn't his name, that there wasn't any Jim King out there so, they tell

me once the first shots fired it goes from this guy to the commander of

the Swat team, I guess during the time I was out there it must have changed...it

was far from that, there was a lot of... 05/51 ...well, one thing there

was too damn many people out there, you had people you didn't know who the

hell they was, they was goig every which way...it's a thousand to one that

somebody hasn't got hurt out there, other than, some innocent person got

hurt...

06/15 ...well that's the same thing I got on my statements and everyting,

I didn't shoot my mouth off about what I thought of the FBI but, (laughs)

...

COLORBARS V.O. ...06/38 ...well, I don't know, it was a damn mess...

06/48 ...it was a screwed up affair...(picture back on) ...I don't know,

you know, like you said, they'll probably be harrassing the fed. govt. for

the rest of their lives..... 07/06 ...see I had run into Ginter before that...I

knew him, I gave his son a ticket...hell you'd thought I'd committed hari-kari...I

was the sorriest son of a bitch in the world...what really made him mad

back then... he was driving an out of state car with a tx. drivers license...I

knew who he was, I made him post a cash bond...you would have thought I

took my gun and held him up and made him give me the money..hell it wasn't

very long after that all this other shit came up and I really got him good

with it...

10/25 ...I hunt, I go up there all the time and hunt, I see all these

people up there and they never give me any problem... 10/44 ...they blow

all that shit out of proportion, you know about, we were the worse son of

a bitches...the longer it went the worse it got...they lost everything,

I guess they did lose everything in that damn house, cause everything did

burn up...

11/17 ...well, have you ever talked to Buck Stuart...he's radical as

can be, ...Bill Wade, his son Ray, all this, see his wife testified against

him, against Ray. Shit we arrested him, two or three times, terroristic

threatening, and trying to kill wife, and all this shit, ...in the govts.

behalf...well, I think he's got a violent temper, I guess when he gets mad,

he just goes off the deep end and...

12/14 ...Now Bill, I've never had any problems with Bill or Buck at all,

you know... this guy that works with me got Buck for speeding and he came

to Jonesboro to go on TV, ...so Walker went up there arrest him...ohh hell

that's there middle name... shit they made me look like a millionare, 52.9

million...if I had that kind of money, I sure wouldn't be a damn police

officer...

13/19 ...oh shit, they had about, five or six pages of shit they're suing

us for...and then , lets see Bill Wade owned the house, Ginter lived in

the house... Ginter started suing and then Wade jumped in cause he owned

the house...

END TOM LEE INTERVIEW @ 06:14:45

CREDITS

with interviews of...

Joan Kahl
Yorie Kahl
Lynn Crooks
Toots Mathis
Dennis Fisher
John Noah
Irv Nodland
Bill Kennelly
Prof. Ed Gran
Jack McLamb
Delores Everts
Scarlet Skiftu
Herman Widicker
August Pankow
Victor Seil
Marlys Klimek
Ron Perleberg
Len Martin
Brad Kapp
Robert Holiday
Tom Lee
Ed Fitzpatrick
Gene Nail
Buford Terrell
Marlene Gaysek
Bob Ralston
Darrel Graf
Steve Schnabel
Jack Swan
Loreen Dyck
Lorna/Loreen
Mark Stagg
Sheriff Ray Weatherby
Jack Miller

cinematography

Tracy Adams
Allison Hoffman
Jeffrey F. Jackson

production design

Jim Haddon
Peter Lloyd

film editing

Tracy Adams
Martyn Hone
Jeffrey F. Jackson

original music by

Tracy Adams

sound department

Tracy Adams
Jeffrey F. Jackson

stunts

Rex Reddick

produced by

Jeffrey F. Jackson
Angela Kaye

writing by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

directed by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

CHRONOLOGY

A timeline of the life of Gordon Kahl, from early childhood interests, to his marriage to Joan Kahl, his decorated military experience, his outspoken tax protest, the Medina shootout, and his unusual death in Arkansas in 1983.

REVIEWS

VARIETY / Indie documaker Jeffrey F. Jackson sticks it to the IRS and the Feds in "Death & Taxes," a hard-hitting reinvestigation of the 1983 Gordon Kahl case, about which questions still linger. Jackson's unfazed, investigative reporting-style approach and inventive handling of familiar material make this a controversial item for fests and progressive webs. Non-U.S. viewers will also get a charge out of its conspiracy theme. read more

CHRONICLES MAGAZINE / Gordon Kahl was a simple farmer who became famous for not filing income tax returns. Imprisoned and hounded by IRS agents who never did prove he owed any amount of money, Kahl and his son were involved in a shootout with police. The son is still serving a prison sentence, but the father was surrounded and shot in Arkansas by police officers who mutilated and burned his body. read more

GUNS & AMMO / A new video documentary, Death & Taxes, details a case of government murderously out of control that was briefly mentioned in the October 1994 Guns & Ammo article "The Ugly Truth About Gun Control." Death & Taxes is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer and decorated World War II veteran, and his apparent death at the hands of federal agents. read more