INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPTS

Toots Mathis

TOOTS#00/07

Employed Gordon in Texas from late 60's thru

70's

START:

TAPE #00:07

08/46 well, he was just an ordianary old boy, you know. One of the best

men I met in my life, I suppose. He came up to my place orf business one

day , and asked me me if I needed any hands? The type of hands in the early

60's were pretty ragged, coming in from Mississippi, Louisiana...he'd been

in town a few days. I told him, yeah, I could use him ... I think at the

time there was a tire salesman,, he left and I talked to GK for a few minutes,

while we were talking one of my crews come in and said they couldn't get

a truck started ... so we went out and worked on it and GK stood back and

watched, then he said would you mind if I had a look at this thing. well,

he had it purring like a cat... that old boy knows something, that's better

than 90 % of these working for me...anyhow he went to work for me...it turned

out he was one of the best hands I ever had work for me. ... matter of fact,

I've gone off two three weeks at a time and left everything in charge with

him and felt like it was being better looked after than if I was here.

I'm not kidding you, he's that kind of old boy. ... I don't know as time

went on we got to know one another pretty good ... we

11/35

I think it was the second pay day , I handed him his check. He looked

at me and said, ohh, I forgot to tell you, you took social security out

of my check and I meant to tell you before this payday not to do it anymore.

I said what are you talking about Gordon?

He said well, I don't belong to the social security program.. I said,

whadda you mean you don't belong, that's like living and dying. He said,

that's what every body thinks, but you don't have to participate in it.

I said boy, that's a new one on me...I said Gordon, I'm just new on my

feet in this business world, I don't want to do anything to get myself into

trouble... if you'll bring me something showing me you don't belong to it,

I'll be glad to not take it out.

So, he brought me a form from the IRS, I don't remember the number...

bout 4 numbers, it showed that he had withdrawn from the soc. sec. program.

At that time wages what they were, and as many kids that Godon had at home,

there was no withholding tax, he just wasn't making that kind of money because,

I think he had all of his kids at home, plus one or two grandkids...

anyhow this went on and we become really good friends...

everytime I'd send in a quarterly report, down where you're supposed

to put a employees soc. sec. number I'd put down form so and so... those

people didn't even know what it was and they'd write and I'd call em and

say, look this man has withdrawn from soc. sec., and this form looks leg.

so I'm not taking soc. sec. out of his check. that passed over with no problem.

14/51

it continued for years about every six months they'd want to know what

his soc. sec. # was. and I'd have to write or call em and tell em he didn't

have one.

We got talking bout the bible one day and I found out he was real religious,

and one of the smartest men I ever knew about the bilbe. .. I had started

studying the bible a few years before, I got tired of hearing one preacher

talk about it this way and another that way.

he said, are you interested in the bible. I said sure, I think it's

the most important thing a man ought to be concerned with. is what's going

to happen to him.

we got together and studied the bible and I'll guarantee you that man

knew it. he knew it good. He got off to a deal one day, he belonged to Mormon

Church in Utah, he was working out there.

he was so good and knew it so well, that one day they asked him to preach...

somehow or another he got sidetracked on communism and they called him up

on the mat about it.

(CUT WITH GK'S SISTER TALKING ABOUT HIM GETTING HIS MOM INTO MORMON CHURCH

AND THEN QUITTING IT HIMSELF)

16/59

...told him he couldn't do it anymore and he quit. He said I haven't

said anything that wasn't right or true and I think the people have a right

to know about this. He quit the mormon church

when he came to Crane here, he said, I've tried about every church in

Crane and Odessa and I'm trying to find one we could fit into. ...it does

something to you, I mean, I knew what kind of man he was, he was as good

a man as you'll find.

18/00

I remember one time we hired some new hands , they were from Alabama,

I don't think they could even read or write, we hired em that morning, we

were shorthanded and had extra work to do,

anyhow Gordon took em out and got em to work. but on the way they told

him they didn't have anything to eat. so they stopped at a store on the

way to get some sandwich stuff... well later he went back out to check on

em, ...they were using dogfood to put on bread. He got out there and told

em to throw it away and he went back in and got em stuff to make sandwichs

out of ... I don't know, like I said, he took, I knew when I left that he

would take better care of the business then when I was there.

20/10

that was what he told me, he told me after WWII, he spent two years

studying communism to get set in his own mind, what it was. He said that

day that he was substitue preaching. he said when the elders heard about

the uproar that he caused about it, telling the people about communism,

they called him in on the mat and said there won't be anymore of that.

He said, look, if I can't tell them the truth, this things getting pretty

bad, that's it, I'll just quit and he did and that's what he told me.

21/05 (GOOD CIGARETTE LIGHTING)

21/14

Well, he went to work for me in the spring of 65, and I sold out in

July of 72 and to a good friend of mine. ... he didn't know anything the

business except I'd done pretty good.

21/50 I said, look, if you'll just let this man right here run the whole

operation and don't bother him , don't mess with him, he'll make you some

money. ... I left here in 72 and was gone about two years.

I came back and went into a different type of oil work... Gordon was

still working for him...

He took care of all that stuff for the old boy and made him a lot of

money with it.

22/50God, he was one of the best mechanixs he could take a motor that

nobody else could make run and make it sound brand new, I never saw anything

like it.

23/10 (WAR EXPERIENCES)

We got into it one time, he was talking about it, one of our planes

fired on him , talking about doing things sometimes, theres a toss up about

whether it's right or wrong or whatever. He told me about one of our planes

fired at him, and they came back again, they mistook him for the enemy is

what they figured and he shot this thing down, he had to shoot the plane

down and it griefed him. He several times it was brought up and he talked

about it, about having to do things that you get caught up in and there's

no easy way out of.

(CUT W/ YORIE TALKING ABOUT HIS DAD HAVING TO SHOT THOSE MARSHALS)

24/15

...there's no clear cut yes or no, you have to go one way or the other...

yeah, he didn't like it, like anybody else, nobody likes it... it changed

a lot of em. Gordon, everytime that was brought up, he hated the fact that

he knew he killed some of our own people, that was about it, he was shot

all to pieces, he was carrying

25/15 ...schrapnel around when he was here.

(JJ POSSE?)

26/02 He was just getting into that wwhen I came back , I had been gone

two years, three months... I come back here...

He started that up, I came here Jan. 1, 1975, and I bought, the man

he was working for I bought this guys brother out. it was a different operation

that Gordon didn't know anything about. ...

I came back in here and they were getting pretty wound up into that

when I came back , course we had talked about withholding tax before I ever

left here, that was supposed to be a temporary deal , according to the govt

until WWII was over and they never did let up, they just kept on and not

only did they keep on , they kept getting worse, they said soc. sec. would

be one and half percent and look what it is, they said it would never go

beyond 2 or 3 % , what is it, now close to 7% now... I didn't know.

I was real busy, even at that

28/50 ...I saw Gordon pretty often, he'd come by and we'd visit, he was

telling me about this posse comitatus, it was when your law won't do anything

or what not, kind of like vigilantes or something, course they're supposed

to have more power than a group of vigilante type you know , and,

29/28 ... I don't know , you start trying to buck somebody like the fed.

govt. you're in trouble, you're in a mess, I don't think you can win with

them whether you're right or wrong.

I got out of 29th of Dec. 1976 and that was just about the time they

come swarming down and got Gordon for income tax evasion...

END TAPE @ 00:30:22

TOOTS#00/30

NEW TAPE

START @ 00:30:26

31/55 ...then the next thing I knew, they were fixing to come down

here and get him for income tax evasion, so uh, then the next thing I knew

sure enough they'd come and got him...

and I didn't see him for a pretty good while, I saw his wife and talked

with her, kinda kept track of Gordon. but, first thing I knew they had

put him prison... I didn't know how long he was going to be there or anything

else.. it makes you wonder sometimes ...just because you stand up and try

to fight for someting you think is right...

33/00 ...Gordon is the type of old boy he didn't come and try to push

anything down your throat or say look he you don't understand what I'm saying

you must be an idiot. you'd be sitting talking, you'd talk your turn, he'd

talk his turn.

If you'd be interested in anything he said and asked for an explanation,

he'd give it to you. I've never known of that man to come and say look you

oughta do what I'm doing, we oughta do this or do that or band together...I

never knew that . He never came and told me now this is the right way ,

and what's your thinking is the wrong way, he never did that.

34/00 He told me some stuff that you know, that my goodness at the time

he told me, I thought he was crazy. But, noithing that he ever told that

has come to pass, wasn't true, that he told...

matter of fact that first time that he told me that he didn't belong

to the soc. sec. , I said well Gordon I thought yuou had to belong to the

soc. sec. he said that's waht everybody thinks, but you don't. and he said

but besides, he said by the time, course at the time I was 35 he was about

41, he ssaid besides byt the time you and I reach the age for soc. sec.

there won't be none. he said they'll be b roke, and then another time.

course we grew up as Democrats, I dind't know what a democrat was, I didn't

know whqta Republican was.

35/26

...but I knew my muther and daddy was supposed to be Democrats, they

thought FDR walked on water . he saved the country... one day Gordon and

I were talking and he said, oh yeah FDR knew the Japs were going to bomb

Pearl Harbor, two or three weeks before they did it. My god the hair on

the back of my neck stood up, you know because all my life... all I'd ever

known about FDR was that he was a hero, he saved the people. But, he said,

there was definite proof that he knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl

Harbor. Since that time I talked to him, I talked to four men who were

at Pearl Harbor when it was attacked and they said there was no guns manned

that day, every body was on leave. so that makes you wonder you know.

36/50

...like I said, he's told me some pretty wild stuff, at the time I thought

it was very wild. but, if it is anything to come to pass it was true.

37/15 He said we alot of times, I didn't know who he meant, it was a

group he was associated with... possibly the posse or a tax protest group,

I don't know, ... he said we have proof that Oswald didn't kill kennedy,

he said they had pictures and everything... they said there was one man

acting alone, and he said there was definately three different shooting

sites that day...

38/20 ...I don't know if you remember a few months ago a kid who came

out, his daddy was in on that. he was a policeman. it come out a few months

ago...this boy said his daddy, he and his mother found, the daddy died in

a fire house burned up and killed him. They had this diary or book of the

daddy, the FBI come, they called them in and the book disappeared. What

that boy told coincided with what Gordon told me on that deal. He said we

had people there, that took movie pictures... I don't know, but he said

definately, that Oswald was just a trinket in the deal, that he didn't kill

him.

40/09 oh god Jeff, I don't know, this stuff will come to you now and

then ...

41/000 I don't know some of us took up some money, thought that it might

help out. I don't know if it helped or not, you know.

I saw him a time or two after he got out...and he told me then that

they were going to kill him.

41/42

He flat did, he said they're going to kill me, he said and I know it

and he said, they're, they've already took the farm away. I thought well,

the man never lied to me. or never pulled any stuff on me before, maybe

they are going to kill him, I don't know. and then shur enought they did.

He had told me, he had been back down there several times he'd go up in

Dakota, he said they had been warned several times that something was going

to happen ...they got prepared for it and it never came off. but he told

me, they're going to kill me, they cann't afford to let me live. I didn't

know, you know, I thought well maybe they won't... from all I can understand

and I read that letter he wrote after that deal happened , that was as deliberate

as anything I've ever seen, it looked to me like

43/23

...now where it come from and who decided to put the last nail in the

coffin, I don't know, don't care to know. but I know they done away with

an awful fine man, I'll guarantee you that.

44/23 ....I thought he was as sane as anybody running loose on this

country around here. and I thought he was probably smarter than hell I don't

know, he's one of the smartest men I ever knew...course that, you dummy,

maybe you didn't know much and I dind't... at the same time I mean he didn't

blow it, he didn't throw it around, he didn't butt in and didn't try to

put anybody down, or anlything else, he just told what he thought and like

I said,... I've heard him talk around other people and everything, I never

did catch him in anything that was a lie or blowd out of proption or anything

else.

45/25

...so, I didn't have any reanson to doubt it, then when I read that

letter that his wife got after that deal up yonder (ND roadblock) . Course

I had seen him not too long before that, and he told me the last two times

that I saw him that they was going to kill him. And you know you're gettin

into something there that nobody knows. I don't know enough about that

crap to know what went on. I just know from that letter I read of his,

that he took the responsiblity for killing all those guys up there, he said

he killed em. And it sounded like him. It was typoical of him . He , the

letter that I read, he saw this old boy after he had done shot Yori, he

raised up and was going to finish him. And he shot thru the door. He didn''t

try to kill the man. And then this other old boy ran out to help Yori.

And Gkordon glanced back and he said that old boy was taking aim down on

him or Yori , one or the other, fixing to shot him again and that's when

he shot the first one. and killed him. The one that was standing on the

other side of the car... he wasn't what you would call ruthless or anthing

, he had em at their mercy at the end, they were all disarmed. He had the

whole bunch of em, you know, he could have killed everyone of em, if he'd

be a blood thirsty bloody sucker or whatever you want to call it. He coulda

killed every one of em.

47/50 Yeah, I read everything I could get my hands on about it. ...

I don't think you want to hear... By God I knew Gordon and I knew him

well, and I knew those idiots didn't (the media) , if somebody shot my

son you know I'd a done to em? I'd a cut em up into little bitty pieces.

after I killed em. but there wouldn't have been anybody walked away from

there if I'd been there. or I don't believe there wouldn't a been. not,

if I'd a had the upper hand like Gordon did. There sure woulnd't have been

anybody walked away from there. not of all the harrassment he had had, and

aggravation, it would have boiled over on me.

49/30 anymore anybody is a fanatic if they say they believe in such

and sucha thing. but, how far do you have to go, or how far can you go.

I don't think none of us go far enough in religion to be called fanatic.

we all come up short on that part. as far as race, I've seen him work around

black people , mexicans, anybody else you know, he never mistreated anybody

that I know of. ever.

50/33 I've seen him, he had patience of Job, I'll guarantee you mister.

We've encountered people out here who have come , like I told you, from

deep alabama, mississibi, Louisiana, East TX, and, they didn't know anything

about anthing as far as oil field was concerned.

nothing. I never saw that man, raise his voice , heard him belittle

anybody, don't care what color they were or where they came from.I never

saw him turn away from anybody who needed help. If they were haveing trouble

with someting he'd go try and help em. and, all this racist, and that's

a bunch of crap.

52/00 ...yeah, since he was a little kid. but I wasn't around him real

often... everytime I was up around Gordon's house they was well mannered

kids. everyone of em. that little time I was away from here...I was k

END TAPE @ 00:52:52

TOOTS#00/53

NEW TAPE TOOTS MATHIS

START TAPE @ OO:53

53/40

I asked him what it was and he told me. well it was a kind of a deal,

when the law of the town became defunct or wasn't doing their job. the posse

had the right to take over and help out...I didn't know what the devil was

going on...it got pretty strong here for a while I think, I never did join

it, like I said, Gkordon never did push anything on anybody, he never did

me. Matter of fact when I was questining him about posee, he never said

you oughta come on and help us, we need to get this mess straightened out.

he never did that. he said anybody can belong to it and we've got an obligation

here, in the event the law doesn't do what their supposed to we can do it

for em.

55/10 hell at the time I was so busy I didn't have time to be in nothing.

...

55/40 for I knew it wham, they come down and got gordon gonna try him

on this income tax stuff, as for Yorie, first time I knew that he'd gotten

into anything, I had to go down to jail one morning to get one of my hands

out of jail...when I was in there I overheard em talking about yorie that

he'd gotten into trouble. He'd taken a felt pen and painted on his license

plate because they thought that was illegal

56/48 ...and Yori he was kinda of like me, he believed everything that

Gordon said , to a point. but instead of having that little tiny sticker,that

said 1990, he took an painted it and they caught him for it. ...Gordon

pulled out. I said what's going on Gordon, he said, ohh they got Yori,

he said he shouldn't have put anything on there...I don't thinkg a whole

lote come of it.

58/20 I remember one time he was supposed to go on TV in Midland, I

never did see it on TV. but he was telling me about it. and he told me

he said, you know he'd talk about living or dying like it was going over

to get a drink of water. He wasn't afraid to die, I'' guaranttee you that

for what he belived. But he told me, he said, we're finally going to get

a deal on TV , they're going to interview us on TV about this tax stuff

that's illegal, he said when we do that 's when they're going to put the

heat on me. I think he went over here to Midland on TV. When they got hot

on him, didn't he go to Utah? somewhere and go on TV?

01/00/00

He had a lot of friends out there in Utah cause he was out there for

a while. That's when he was hooked up with the Mormon church. right after

he got out of the service. this was some years later, maybe an old friend,

maybe it got to a point where they could get him on TV, they believed in

him ...I sure believe that he went on TV and the whole deal of this thing

was that withholding was against the constituition and this soc. sec. tax

kept climbing and climbing ...

01/01/10 ...He said they were Satan worshpers and my daddy in law it

was one of the best organizations in the world. ,,,

He claims that, we talked a while ago and you asked me if he was racist,

the race I heard him talk about was the Jews. The black, mexicans, italians,

nothing. He says that the jews call it, they said we've got, he used that

term, we several times to me ...but he was telling me, that the jews to

try to get back at the gentiles, are doing everything they can to degrade

and push em down, and undermine em in other words to a point and he said

we've got a copy of their protocols, the main on e in there, it says we

don't care who's got the biggest army, navy or air force, or whatever, if

we've got money we can control the world... he didn't like em. He didn't

have nothing for em, I'll guarantee you that,

01/03/40

they're the only bucnch of people I've heard him romp on, the jews...

the , he said back to the masons, they're stragiht from the devil, all

those signs and that damned upside down deal there, matter of fact there

was a lot of stuff I didn't understand cause I wasn't smart enough. that

old boy he knew what he was talking about, he was smart as a whip... He'd

get off on stuff with me and I'd say wait aminute your're way over my head...

01/04/53... some of the stuff he told me, at the time I thought you have

got to be an idiot. But, as time proved out he wasn't, never, in anything

he ever told me that came to pass was exactly like he told me... now there

was stuff that hasn't been proved, like the Kennedy, ...he said that ole

boy up in that building didn't kill kenedy, and he told me, Kennedy did

not die in Dallas, he said they carried him to that island over there that

Onassis owned,.. they said he'd have been a vegatable if he'd a lived.

he died on the way over there... then you think, well, how did Jackie meet

that old boy.

01/07/20 ... there's things that have slipped my mind, I don't know,

like I told you he's one of the best men I ever met, I don't care what anyboyd

says. ... I hated to see him go. but he did what he belived in.

01/08/19

Finally I got disgusted with em, I knew they were lying, so I just if

god is who he says he is, even an old boy like me, he'll let me know thru

this bible if I'm on the right track.. I studied the bible and I thought

I knew it pretty well, then I ran into Gordon and I'll tell you that good

ole boy knew the bible. he knew it as good as anybody I have ever seen,

we'd get together and study it... we wouldn't take anybody 's word we'd

go to the bible and look it up...

01/09/28

...what it was that he had was stronger than anything else, his beliefs

to him was straonger than anything else I guess, he believed we were being

done a wrong and I think we are myself, look at all this crooked crap going

on today, you know, and then people all of a sudden go looky here what's

happening, the savings and loan deal right there, the busted banks...I'm

telling you it's enough to make a man want to throw up, I'll guarantee you.

(JJ'S RELEASE FORM)

01/13/25 ...I don't want to end up getting my ass in a sling over this

shit I'll tell you for sure now. ...well, I done had those son of a bitches

down here on my asse , come in my house here and throw their shit around

a few times... the goddamned FBI...

01/14/00 ... those sons of a bitches tapped that phone for goddamned

about six or eight months ... yeah, shit I knew there was something wrong

with it. those bastards come down here they had been a bunch of damn reporters

down here irritating tyhe shit out of us.... my wife said I'm getting sick

of it...I said me too... I saw two guys walk past that window, I said hell

there's two more of em right now. she said I'm just going to tell em that

we don't want to talk to em. ...She said are you all reporters and that

SOB whipped out his badge...

END TAPE @ 01:15:23

END TOOTS MATHIS INTERVIEW

CREDITS

with interviews of...

Joan Kahl
Yorie Kahl
Lynn Crooks
Toots Mathis
Dennis Fisher
John Noah
Irv Nodland
Bill Kennelly
Prof. Ed Gran
Jack McLamb
Delores Everts
Scarlet Skiftu
Herman Widicker
August Pankow
Victor Seil
Marlys Klimek
Ron Perleberg
Len Martin
Brad Kapp
Robert Holiday
Tom Lee
Ed Fitzpatrick
Gene Nail
Buford Terrell
Marlene Gaysek
Bob Ralston
Darrel Graf
Steve Schnabel
Jack Swan
Loreen Dyck
Lorna/Loreen
Mark Stagg
Sheriff Ray Weatherby
Jack Miller

cinematography

Tracy Adams
Allison Hoffman
Jeffrey F. Jackson

production design

Jim Haddon
Peter Lloyd

film editing

Tracy Adams
Martyn Hone
Jeffrey F. Jackson

original music by

Tracy Adams

sound department

Tracy Adams
Jeffrey F. Jackson

stunts

Rex Reddick

produced by

Jeffrey F. Jackson
Angela Kaye

writing by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

directed by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

CHRONOLOGY

A timeline of the life of Gordon Kahl, from early childhood interests, to his marriage to Joan Kahl, his decorated military experience, his outspoken tax protest, the Medina shootout, and his unusual death in Arkansas in 1983.

REVIEWS

VARIETY / Indie documaker Jeffrey F. Jackson sticks it to the IRS and the Feds in "Death & Taxes," a hard-hitting reinvestigation of the 1983 Gordon Kahl case, about which questions still linger. Jackson's unfazed, investigative reporting-style approach and inventive handling of familiar material make this a controversial item for fests and progressive webs. Non-U.S. viewers will also get a charge out of its conspiracy theme. read more

CHRONICLES MAGAZINE / Gordon Kahl was a simple farmer who became famous for not filing income tax returns. Imprisoned and hounded by IRS agents who never did prove he owed any amount of money, Kahl and his son were involved in a shootout with police. The son is still serving a prison sentence, but the father was surrounded and shot in Arkansas by police officers who mutilated and burned his body. read more

GUNS & AMMO / A new video documentary, Death & Taxes, details a case of government murderously out of control that was briefly mentioned in the October 1994 Guns & Ammo article "The Ugly Truth About Gun Control." Death & Taxes is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer and decorated World War II veteran, and his apparent death at the hands of federal agents. read more