INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPTS

Bob Ralston

TAPE #20

00/30 ...My name is robert Ralston, I'm a special agent with the criminal

investigation division of the IRS in Lubbock Texas. I've been employed

since 1972. I've been a special agent my whole career...

2/45 ...well I graduated from Texas State Univesity and I knew, a friend

I'd grown up with was a special agent...the job market was not real good

back then , but I thought it would be something I'd like to do, so I interviewed

with them and was lucky enough to get hired...and I didn't have to move...been

here ever since.

3/20 ...yes, I started , at that time it was called the intelligence

division, since then it's been changed to Criminal Investigation Division...

3/45 ...It's an interesting job. Your'e out of the office a lot. You

deal with many different types of people, there are many different people

with many different schemes on how to avoid paying their taxes or evading

their taxes, let me put it that way ...and it's a challenge to find that

and to ....to the people are breaking the law and you attempt to prosecute

them for those crimes and let them deal with their punishment...4/27 ...

04/43 ...well, I'm asked that question a lot ...cause IRS does not have

a good...people don't like to pay taxes...it's a job, a professional job...it

needs to be done...the country operateds on the tax system ...thats the

major source of the revenue and everybody needs to abid by the law and pay

their fair share... and so I think in the most part people understand, of

course there's going to be a few who don't understand, but I think they

do, probably more people than don't....thinks it would be an interesting

job and of course it is...5/38...

6/17... yes, sometimes, I can remember it has...whenever you're working

a case, you're constantly confronted by people...they don't want to cooperate

with you all the time...they're somewhat reserved in talking with you...so

there's this constant battle that you're hitting and like anything at some

point in time you get tired of it...but, not really after you successfully

work a case...that you did a good thing, a rightr thing , that what you

did makes a difference, and ...yeah, there are times, when you've got this

constant attitude towards you, it can affect you sometimes...7/21...

8/05 ... well, when I started back in 72, was about the time when this

quote tax movement started... we started to see these 5th amendment filed

returns and they didn't file any information... and they invoked their 5th

amendment privelege... a lot of his people that his associated with lived

in Midland/Odessa area... a lot of oil people got involved with this movement...

9/05 ...I remember this case was assigned to me, because during that

time, there were , like I say, we were getting these protest returns in,

I think his was one of them... he also, had been attending meetings, I think

he was involved with a group called the United Tax Action Patriots, which

was formed in the midland/odessa area...he was one of the probably, a member

for that group... they bought air time...9/48... at some tv stations in

midland/oddessa and they got up there and blatantly outwardly on public

TV said that they didn't agree with the income tax laws of the united states,

they were unconsitutional and they weren't going to abid by them. So they

publicly made these statements, that I'm not going to pay my taxes...10/10

they also appeared on some radio talk shows... and they espoused their beliefs

and really said, heh, here I am, what are you going to do about it...10/28

...and of course, the whole system is based on voluntary filing of this

return...10/37... they said, that to me, that it was voluntary, that you

could do it well it's not, it's a voluntary system in that we're allowing

to voluntarily report the correct amount of taxes and pay your fair share...

10/51 ...you know when people see this, they wonder what's going to happen

to these people? How can these people get up there on TV and they're breaking

the law...and hadn't paid taxes in x-number of years or I'm not going to...11/03...

what's going to be done about it... and of course to help our voluntary

compliance and to keep some integrety with our laws we've got to do something

about it...11/13... I was assigned his case and it went from there...11/18...(CUT

TO MARLENE AND GARY BOOTH AND THE ISSUE OF VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE)

11/37... WELL, I don't know, I don't guess necessarily, people read that

stuff the way they want to read it...I wouldn't want to live in a country

where they came by and knocked on your door everyday and said, heh, you

owe me a thousand dollars, pay up right now. I think it's a good system,...I'm

not saying it's not without it's flaws...as you were saying earlier, all

govts. are not perfect, but it's the best one I've seen around. ...and I

don't know if I'd change that or not...12/15...

12/28... it might have been, could have been worded differently, but

at the same time I think they wanted to give the impression that we're not

going to come knock at your door, we're going to trust you to do what's

right...12/41...

12/48 ...yes sir, he was I believe so, because I think on this particular

TV show, the best I can remember and I'm not really sure if this is how

I found out he was associated with the posse or if it was from the people

down in Crane...we were aware of this organization and the beliefs of this

organization and we were concerned at the time and we took appropriate precautions,

whenever we're dealing with somebody who would be a member of an organization

like this... yeah, I'm almost positive I can remember him being on the TV

show and him saying, he was a member of the posse comitatus...13/36...

13/44 ...I don't recall, I don't know if we knew it was coming on or

if we heard later and went and saw tapes of it...if we knew it was coming

on, we may have watched it and taped it ourselves...there were several meetins

over a time period... it could have been over several years that every so

often these people would be on it...14/15...

14/31... there's no telling where it is...it would have probably been

used in the courtroom...14/45 ...I think probably evidence presented at

court during trial was that he appeared on these shows...I don't think we

showed film in the courtroom, we might have had transcripts, or something

like that, but I can't rmember...15/01...

(JJ asks about the factory men who stopped having witholding)

15/32 ...I don't if it was the direct result of these TV shows, they

also had meetings ...at some motels, once a month or once a week or once

every other week, I can't remember how often they were...they also held

meetings, they tried to thru word of mouth, get people to attend these meetings

and to hear their philosophy on the whole situation and pass out pamphlets...and

I understood that they.. 16/07... tried to assure them that what they were

doing was right and people across the country were doing the same and they

weren't alone, and that if they unit together and they get a number of people

it was all going to work out fine...16/19... (CUT W/BUFORD/JOAN/MARLENE)

16/22... and then by word of mouth they tried to get people to follow...I

don't know if it was a direct result of the TV shows but, the tax protest

movement in Midland/Odessa did get growth for a while by sheer , just, by

what this guy does , and if he's saying what he's sayings true, well that

sounds good, if I can file a W4 claiming 40 allowances, which was the only

way at that time that a wage-earner at that time could avoid from paying

his taxes or keep from paying his taxes, that's the only way that a wage-earner

can do it. so, we did have a rash of people filed these fraudulents W4

forms, claiming however many exemptions they needed to wipe out all of the

withholding...17/12...

17/52... see, this movement, like I said it started, it evolved over

a time period of several years that we got more of these protest returns

in ...and they would sell these protest packages at these protest meetings

to show you how to file this, and if you ever need help, we'll ... 18/18...

(CUT W/BUFORD)... supply you with legal advice and maybe ever get you an

attny. to help you at your trial, but we need to stick together on this

thing...well, there was so many of em , started working a lot of em ...and

then they started to get convicted, started to find out when it came to

trial time, heh, where's the legal help? ...18/37... where's the guy who's

going to help me? Well, we didn't lose a case...18/43... and all these

people who filed these false W4s and failed to file returns or filed to

file a proper return, were convicted and being sent to prison and then after

so many people got convicted and saw that ...19/02......that what these

people had been telling em, heh, it's going to work, it wasn't working they

were going to jail and it died down and to this point we don't have a problem...19/13...that

I'm aware of, so if they're not filing, they're certainly not filing the

protest documents anymore...19/20...

20/18... well I think it 's a situation, we certainly didn't want to

violate their right to say what they want to say, but when a man gets up

and says, I'm going to break the law because I don't agree with it and then

in fact does it...you can't turn your eyes away and not do something about

it... 20/40... because it could have a devastating effect on the people's

whole perception of what our job is, I mean, if he gets up and says I'm

going to break the law and does it and he gets away with it and we're not

going to do anything about it, then, it gives them a little more credence

to their story or gives them a little more to the idea that well, maybe

he's right...of course they weren't right, they were wrong...21/06...

21/17 ...Was there danger,.. did we perceive danger from these people,...

yeah, we were always very cautious...cause we had heard about what their

beliefs were , and their little blue booklet that they had , and it set

forth their , what the posse comitatus stood for and what they belived in...21/45...

there was a section in it about taking anybody who breaks the law and hanging

em by the neck until dead on the busiest street corner in town to serve

as an example...21/58... and when you get anybody that gets into a protest

scenario or situation and starts saying we're going to take the law into

our own hands... yeah, it made us aware that there could be...22/23...possible

problems and we were always prepared for it and used caution with them...

heh, look what happened in '83...22/35... it happened, and that could have

happened at any point in time and you don't know when it will snap... 22/43...

23/06... well, I cna't remember for sure cause it's been so long ago...

at some point in time, I got assigned the case... it just so happens that

we got the returns and then all of a sudden and then he was getting active

in the movement...that just helped prove our case , to show that the protester

was out doing it... it was he was convicted for failure to file the proper

tax returns , and to supple the proper information to the govt. on which

to calculate his tax... the best I remember, I basically worked the case...24/13...

before I had a talk to Mr. Kahl...and then after I got it completed,

I wanted to give him an opportunity to come in here and offer anything

that he felt that he wanted to offer...I had been thru other investigations

that involved tax protesters...24/41... and they don't cooperate with you.

Course in a criminal investigation they don't have to cooperate with you...

they've got the 5th amendment right...and so , but this was usually the

case when working people involved with the tax protest movement...and you

normally never got anything out of an interview with them...because they

wanted to sit there and they wanted to discuss...25/04 ... the merits of

whether the income tax laws were constitutional or not...so this is what

I did and I did offer Gordon Kahl the interview ...he came in in his normal,

best I remember, we interviewed him in the Odessa office...he brought his

normal , which they usually do, bring in ten or twelve people with them...with

their tape-recorders and they sit there in your office with you and they

attempt to intimidate you...that's what they want to try to do...25/39...

and that's what they talk about at these meetings, is to intimidate the

IRS agents... well, I can't remember how long the interview lasted, but

it didn't last very long...because, what occured, was what I anticipated

occuring, and Mr. Gordon Kahl, he told me that he didn't really have anything

to say, but he started talking about his religious beliefs and how he thought

the income taxz laws were unconstitutional and basically that I was serving

two gods and I couldn't do that... 26/17... and that I was going to hell...matter

of fact and so after he got thru his little spiel that he wanted to say,

I terminated the interview, I told him right there that it was a waste of

his time and my time and I didn't want to sit there and talk about whether

the tax laws were constitutional or not, that I wanted to give him an opportunity

to come in and offer anyting that I might need in order to recommend whether

he be prosecuted or not...26/48... and that didn't happen and they left,

without problem, there was no confrontation or anyting...26/55...

27/14 ... now on critical interviews, we always have a witness, I made

sure I had a witness there that day...

END TAPE @ 20:27/57

ROBERT RALSTON INTERVIEW

TAPE 20:28

28/45 ...I had called GK a day or two or a week prior to being in odessa

and told him I had been investigating him...29/08 ...he did show up at the

office with a group of people, I can't remember how many 8 or 10 ...with

their tape recorders... trying to intimidate you... I advised him of his

rights and he understood those... I can't remember exactly how the interview

went... it didn't last too long...

29/50 ... in a lot of his correspondence with the IRS he stated his religious

beliefs... ...

...30/18 I do remember him telling me that I was serving two gods and

that I couldn't do that and that I was going to go to hell... I was serving

the devil...the IRS was the work of the devil and he didn't believe in it...30/34

...

31/03 ...at that point in time we wrote our report and it went thru

channels... the states attny office for indictment, he was indicted and

we went to trial in Midland...

31/40 his attnys were Buford terrel and lewis terrel... it was a short

case... he had been a wage earner for an oil company and he had income from

the rental of his farm...

33/08 ... I had back to back trials, another one of Kahl's associates,

William Reinhardt... they were back to back, basically over the same issue...they

were both convicted... there was some concern at that time...from some information

I had recieved from law enforcement officials in Crane 33/48 ...that uh,

both Gordon Kahl and his sons Yori and Frederick , they had no respect for

law whatsoever, they didn't have driver's licenses, didn't obey traffic

laws and such as that so there was some concern and GK was a member of the

posse comitatus,.. so there was a chance that he would flee....so I think

the judge was wondering what to do...whether to let him out on bond pending

sentencing...I remember his attny asked that he should have some examination...34/43...so

I believe the judge sent him to springfield missouri to have some psychiatric

examinations... he was later sentenced to one year in priosn and five years

probation ,,, two convictions... 35/30 ... I think the jury was out, less

than 15 minutes...less than an hour... back then we had so many trials...

the jury was out less than an hour, cause it didn't take them long to read

the facts...35/55

36/00 well, yeah, that probably goes along with differnt judicial districts

and judges...it was left up to the judge and the probation presenctence

report ... judge Suttle normally gave peopople time for tax offenses. ...

36/45... I think he could se the potential problem if people didn't pay...

I think there was a sense that heh, if you going to break the law... you're

going to pay the price... do some time... I know in the western district

of texas that people did serve time...

38/10 ...oh yeah, definately, wayne's a very good prosecutor... I can't

remember if it was Kahl's case or reinhearts case (big smile) he gave a

very good closing argument...very good...

39/26 ... he never backe down on his beliefs by any means, ... yeah,

we did follow up on it, it was probably in conjunction with the probation

office...they would be the one having contact with GK...and then they would

maybe contact us, if the guy didn't provide his tax return to them ...and

they could get it from us, because it was a condition of probation...I didn't

have nay deal where I was checking on whether GK filed his tax rreturn last

year, because I was moving on to other opeople and if we got a request from

the probation office, if he hadn't filed in subsequent years, we could

move to have another case on him or move to have his probation revoked...it

was more in conjunction with the probation dept..

42/38 ... I think we expected , maybe even the probation office even

expected to have some problems with GK... just because he got convicted

we didn't think it was going to change his views of doing things.... seems

to me he applied for permission to move back to ND because he was going

to go back and work his farm... seems to me I had heard one time after that

that he had tried to establish a church, his own church...43/16...

43/23 ... he tried to establish a church, trying to get around paying

his taxes... there was a church issue at that time...how we were going to

proceed against those...

44/10 ... no not at all...we did know he was with the posse...reconize

the power of the county... talked to witnesses, that he was stockpiling

wepons for the end...

4453 ...didn't take a long time to investigate it...and the one time

that I talked to him and I believe I only talked to him one time, he was

very, meek, mild mannered, didn't throw tantrums, didn't holler, he was

very matter of fact that what I was doing was evil and wrong and he wasn't

going to abid by it...by the laws and he didn't agree with me, and I had

to do what I had to do and he had to do what he had to do...and so there's

qalways the thought in the back of your mind that it was a possiblility,

but, failing to file a tax return and shooting someone are on opposite ends

of the spectrum 45/47... especially in fact of violence, and , but when

it finally did happen, and I was shocked, I thought what a waste, an utter

waste , over some man's beliefs, that whyat was, the laws laws of the US

was wrong and that he would kill people over it....it spurpised me... but

in looking back, I thought, well he just reached a point in that , he snapped

and it happened... now, see I had jound from the local authorities, his

sons were I don't know if I could say violent kids but , they were very

anit-establishemtn type mentality, this is pure rumor and I never proved

it, but I heard from people that knew them, that if they would watch TV

and there was a police show on , that they would shoot the tv...wheher that

was true or not , from what everybody else was saying, it wasn't beyond

the realm of possibility...they had that type of mentality... 47/25...

48/11 ...yea, he did, I can't remember the amount, it wasn't a large

amount...I believe he would have had a tax due on him, now how much I don't

remember...back in the mid-70s, I can't remember what, without looking back

at the records and the transcriopt of the court ...48/36... cause we proved

his income, which is what we had to... we had to prove he had an income

in excess of a certain amount which was the requirement to file a tax return...48/52...and

we did off of that evidence, prove what his income to be, it was not incumbent

upon us at that trial that he owed x-amount of tax, in fact, matter of fact...

we couldn't bring it up because it wasn't one of the elements...49/03...

but I do remember, that , yes, yes, he would have owed some tax...in

fact it would be reversible error if we had gone into that...

49/50... you have to prove he didn't file a tax return, you have to

prove he was required to file a tax return and that his failure to file

was wilful. and we proved all those...

50/28 ... the guidelines today are changing, ...but I'm sure he would

have gotten some time, yes...50/57 ...these particular people brought attention

to themselves, you know...

51/37 ... I don't remember a lot about judge Suttle, I don't,,, almost

every fed. judge I've had expereience with,,, runs a very structured setting,

he takes control...he does his job...

52/16... well, I just you know, Gordon Kahl was one of many cases I have

worked, I worked it, he was convicted and he served his time...and until

the shootout, I probalby never would have thought of GK again... it was

a tragic deal...I felt real bad when it happened... several people lost

their lives over this, something he was so hardheaded about and believed

in... and that did bother me... I would not like anybody to think in my

opinion...53/10... that he was a martyr or hero in my opinion of GK, he

didn't like the laws, he thougyht he should have been treated differently,

for whateever reasons, political or religious, he chose not to obey the

laws of the US and like everybody else I firmly believe he would be the

first to complain if his roads weren't fixed right or if his kids weren't

getting a proper education...53/48...

...or if we were attacked by some foreign country or something,...he

chose not to pay his taxes... and on top of that he probably having a lot

of influence on some people, who probably ended up , several of which probably

ended up getting convicted over stuff he was telling them was right... (CUT

W/TOOTS SAYING, "he never tried to force his beliefs on you")

... and he just chose going about it in an unlawful manner...54/22...so

I percieve GK as a guy who didn't like the income tax laws and broke the

laws and we convicted him and he got his just sentence and should have went

on and he chose to carry it on farther and tragically some people lost their

lives over it... it bothered mewhen it came down the line...54/48...

...I think probably a lot of other people expressed the same view he

endangered himself, his family and peple around him over some very basic

principals about the way of life in this country...it bothered me...55/12...

55/51 ...Oh I have no idea...

56/18 ...this was news when it happened and I understand that...I'm a

little concerned about there being a movie ...because I think it sensationalizes

something and it might add some fuel to somebody elses fire in another part

of the country who are sitting back waiting for the big one...and that does

concern me... this was one of many protest cases that went to trial ....

57/37...not that I'm aware of, there were several people in this area

who were personally offended that I was investigating them, me along with

several other IRS employees had lawsuits filed against them and one went

to trial... 58/27... no I've never had any people come back on me or valalize

or threaten me... but these lawsuits, the jury was out five minutes and

came back in my favor....

59/22 ... I was kind of interested when I heard about he shootings about

what had went down... and when he was on the run there were concerns that

he was coming back down here...so I was cautious for a while...

END TAPE & INTERVIEW

CREDITS

with interviews of...

Joan Kahl
Yorie Kahl
Lynn Crooks
Toots Mathis
Dennis Fisher
John Noah
Irv Nodland
Bill Kennelly
Prof. Ed Gran
Jack McLamb
Delores Everts
Scarlet Skiftu
Herman Widicker
August Pankow
Victor Seil
Marlys Klimek
Ron Perleberg
Len Martin
Brad Kapp
Robert Holiday
Tom Lee
Ed Fitzpatrick
Gene Nail
Buford Terrell
Marlene Gaysek
Bob Ralston
Darrel Graf
Steve Schnabel
Jack Swan
Loreen Dyck
Lorna/Loreen
Mark Stagg
Sheriff Ray Weatherby
Jack Miller

cinematography

Tracy Adams
Allison Hoffman
Jeffrey F. Jackson

production design

Jim Haddon
Peter Lloyd

film editing

Tracy Adams
Martyn Hone
Jeffrey F. Jackson

original music by

Tracy Adams

sound department

Tracy Adams
Jeffrey F. Jackson

stunts

Rex Reddick

produced by

Jeffrey F. Jackson
Angela Kaye

writing by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

directed by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

CHRONOLOGY

A timeline of the life of Gordon Kahl, from early childhood interests, to his marriage to Joan Kahl, his decorated military experience, his outspoken tax protest, the Medina shootout, and his unusual death in Arkansas in 1983.

REVIEWS

VARIETY / Indie documaker Jeffrey F. Jackson sticks it to the IRS and the Feds in "Death & Taxes," a hard-hitting reinvestigation of the 1983 Gordon Kahl case, about which questions still linger. Jackson's unfazed, investigative reporting-style approach and inventive handling of familiar material make this a controversial item for fests and progressive webs. Non-U.S. viewers will also get a charge out of its conspiracy theme. read more

CHRONICLES MAGAZINE / Gordon Kahl was a simple farmer who became famous for not filing income tax returns. Imprisoned and hounded by IRS agents who never did prove he owed any amount of money, Kahl and his son were involved in a shootout with police. The son is still serving a prison sentence, but the father was surrounded and shot in Arkansas by police officers who mutilated and burned his body. read more

GUNS & AMMO / A new video documentary, Death & Taxes, details a case of government murderously out of control that was briefly mentioned in the October 1994 Guns & Ammo article "The Ugly Truth About Gun Control." Death & Taxes is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer and decorated World War II veteran, and his apparent death at the hands of federal agents. read more