Robert Holiday
MEDINA LOCATION 15/16/00 17/11 ...well the first contact I had with GK was thru John Noah, whowas our chief ...this would have been the later winter , early spring of1980...and he transferred him over to me...because it was in my area...sothat was the first contact I had with GK... 18/04 ...the first meeting I had with him, I first recieved the filefrom John Noah...didn't really know what to expect, except that John Noahhad described him as being somewhat eccentric in terms of some extrememereligious beliefs, and a tax protestor...I arranged a home visit...wentout to his farm house and went in to see him, if I remember correctly therewere some family members and other friends there, but, really nothing eventfull...Ifound him to be friendly, he was more than willing to talk, to more or less,mostly interested in trying to explain his beliefs, where he was comingfrom and quickly realized that I had no knowledge of his beliefs or wherehe was coming from, so he spent considerable time trying to explain hiscause and the types of things that he was interested in...he was not a threateningindividual, physically at all, matter of fact he was quite a small man...agrandfatherly type of fellow, sitting in a rocking chairand we just satand had a nice conversation, coffee and cookies , and the whole thing likethat...19/43... 19/48 ...the first time I met with him, to be honest, I did not takeit very seriously or pay a whole lot of attention to what he was saying...wedeal with a whole lot of cases and a lot of different situations and hearfrom a lot of different people...but I found it womewhat interesting tojust sit and talk with him...20/16 ... however he made it quite clear whenI would press him about the reason I was there as his probation officer, that how he was going to be responding to the conditions of his probationmade it quite clear that he was not going to be filing his taxes...but thiswas before the April 15, 1980 deadlines so we would just talk about thosetype of things...20/41 20/51 ...I just explained to him that if he did not that I had noalternationto notify the court of his failure to comply with the conditions of hisprobation and it would likily result in a hearing or something along thoselines...21/09 21/14 ,...I was out to his home twice, to visit personally with him...thefirst time I was out was in March of 1980 and the second time I went outwas in April of 1980, immediately after April 15th I just talked to himagain and find out what his intentions were and that type of thing...21/40 21/44 ...he very vehemently and directly said that he was intending tofile and was not going to comply with the conditions of his probation ...21/55 22/08 ...no he did not, there was no indication of violence, there wasno, anything along those lines...it I realized that, the things he weresaying were extreme, especially the second time ...I think by that timewe realized , and had got a little bit more information from the IRS that, prior to that time we had never heard of posse comitatus, and were notaware of the beliefs, and the strong beliefs held by GK...22/50 ...what I felt he was just really trying to get across to me, ina way, was trying to convert me to his cause...by the method he would goabout explaing where he wa coming from and how he was going to go,...that'sthe feeling that I had...a little prosylitizing was going on...umm, he viewedme as obvioulsy someone who was very ignorant and stupid, to be workingfor the fed. govt. because of course his beliefs were very strong that thegovt. was serving satan and communism and all these types of things...so,he didn't seem particularly afraid of me in a personal way, however he knewwhat I represented in terms of probation and US district courts...23/47 23/59...he felt that it was an illegal convicition, he felt that thelaws were illegal, and he felt that his conviction was illegal and mostlyfelt that he was following his concious and his particular religiouis beliefsand could not bring himself to comply with the laws and conditions set bythe court...24/28 24/46 ...umm, I do not remember any specific, but it was more a feeling,there's a possible potential for violence associated with these types ofpeople and these types of groups and there was some information filteringin from other states that similar types of groups had expressed some violence, if I remember correctly there was some threats made against federal judgesdown in texas and there were connections being made through the countrythat people were starting to sound the alarm, show some concern as far asthe tax protest groups...25/35...(CUT WITH BUFORD SAYING IRS WAS EDUCATINGJUDGES...W/CROOKS SAYING, "WE HAVEN'T HEARD TOO MUCH FROM THE TAX PROTESTORSAFTER THIS...") 26/39... well I realized, especially the second time after I went out,after april 15 . it was my job to say, Gordon, you have not complied. andhe said yes. and um, I felt some uneasiness at that time because of theinformation coming in at that time from other districts. and also becauseof some of the rhetoric expressed by GK. and I think I began to realizethe depth of his feelings and how this had really become a strong issuefor him.. so I had some concern the last time I was out there...27/29... 27/47... not that direct, what I asked him to do was to provide us witha letter, an explanation of what are you intending to do. And the letteris in the file and he spoke at great length, explaining his belief and towardthe end, said, I'm willing to be a martyr for my cause and I'm not goingto give in and I'm not going to give up...basically whatever happens isgoing to happen, and I'm willing to be a martyr. I recieved other informationafter the violation reports were filed. He apparently told some law enforcementpeople that he was not going to go peacefully and he was indicating thathe was going to resist any attempt to arrest him. But he made no directcomments to me, other than what was in the letter he wrote to me... END TAPE HOLIDAY/BROOM INTERVIEW: TAPE #16 00/46 ...but he, when he was talking to me he got into that a littlebit...the masons , but, he was looking for the rings and stuff...if he didask, I'm not, and it meant nothing to me at the time...again you don't realize... 01/59... no, here's one of his monthly reports that he sent in...he listedhis employer as Jesus Christ, and he claimed to be a bishop in the gospeldoctrine church of Jesus Christ and then he talked to me and then here washis little message to me (INSERT A TCU OF THE LETTER STATING THE FOLLOWING)...have you given any thought to become a christian so you can serve christrather than Satan, that was the extent of his ...02/23...not the extent,but the cruxt of his dealings with me, what's a nice young man like youserving satan for? , don't you see the light, that was the kind of thingthat was going on...02/38... 02/49 ...(DAN BROOM) ...again, in keeping with his thoughts anybody workingfor the govt. was working for Satan and was also inserting communism becauseof the second plank of the communist manifesto, . In that convoluted waytaht he worked things out, well we really were servants of satan...and Ithink that's what made it easier...it's sort of the same thing that we dowhen we have a war, (PANS TO HIS FACE) ...we use propaganda, in the waythat I think that he's used it, to further and rationalize our goals...andto somehow make sub-human the people that we feel are misguided or misdirected...Ithink thgat mind set that you see here is what came to fruition on Feb.13, 1983 at Medina.... 3/50 ... this was later on after, more in response to GK's response tolaw enforcement saying, I ain't going. ...if you come to get me, you betterbe ready ,,,this type of veiled threats and not so veiled threats, so atthis time I was not real comfortable with maintaining it on a probation/supervisionsituation...4/22... 4/41 ...umm, Kahl and his followeres like to say he was put into prison,he was sent to Springfireld Missouri for medical examination, that was amedical center and the he was confined at the Leavenworth , but that wasa camp, so he was never in a penitentiary... that was one of his, one ofthose emotional kinds of things that he like to play to, that because Iwas a tax protestor I was placed in a penitentiry , well, he was never placedin a penitentiary...he was in a camp and in a medical center ...the medicalcenter was to have him evaluated...5/23...to see if there was some mentalhealth issues here, because his views were so radical...and the thinkingwas so convoluted...05/34... 06/00...well, what happened was, I submitted the probation violationreport ...and notified the court that Mr. Kahl was not complient with conditionsof his probation and that generated first of all a summons , and they initiateda probation violation hearing, ...6/26...but then, later on withdrew that,they basically dropped the charges. (CUT W/PEOPLE SAYING THERE NEVER WASA VALID WARRANT) and then indicated they kind of wanted to pick up thesupervision again, but by that time, I had had an opportunity to read theletter and recognize the veiled threats combined with the problems associatedlaw enforcement, marshals service that had attempted to serve a summonson him and he had responded very negatively. (CUT W/JOHN NOAH COMMENTINGON HIS FEAR) And I was not at all comfortable at that to renew normal probationsupervision, without some clarification from the court and the texas probationpeople, ...what do you want from me as far as supervision, what are theexpectations here,...so I was not comfortable until we could get some clarification,as to what was actually going on...We were here in ND . The case was downin Texas. So it was just a convoluted time there for a while...I was neverable to initiate a regular superviosion plan of action with him again...7/48... 7/58 ...Most of , after the probation revocation report and petitionwas sent to Texas. I closed my interest and sent the file down to Texas...howeverthey asked that I maintain some courtesy supervision. But, most of thecorrespondence was going on beteween tx and Gk directly ...and I was justkind of on the sidelines, watching and waiting for, to see how this thingwas going to develop and how it was going to end up... that's how I wasfrom that point on...8/37... 9/13... II knew them both...we worked with them both personallly, Bobknew Chesire better caus3e in Bismark, I knew Muir because of in Fargo...weboth knew them, I knew Ken pretty well professionally... 9/47 ...that's basically that's true, monitoring or waiting for somedecision to be made or something to happen...so, no I really had no directinvolvement after that, other than with the deputy marshals and their atemptsto...when the warrant came out I worked with them a fair amount becauseI had some real concerns. And I told the marshals that, I had some realconcerns. I warned them the best I could to be very careful with this situation,because I felt it could be very explosive. So, aside from that contactwith the marshals, I had no other contact with GK...10/32 10/48 ,,,I knew it from reviewing the file, and he basically told mehis life story...his belief that he was a real patriotic christian americanand that was part of his credentials, to point out his military serviceand that sort of thing....11/11 11/19... I was in my home watching the winds of war on TV.... a littleblurb came across my TV that there had been a shooting near Medina, twomarshals had been shot and a parole violator from texas was a suspect...Iwas shocked because of the marshals, but at that point I didn't make a correlationthat it was GK...as a suspect in that becaause there was diffence betweenprobation and parole, he was not on parole, he was on probation...untilthe phone started to ring and a court person had called...and then we realizedwhat the situation was...12/09... 12/23 ...of course I was very shocked by the bloodshed, the extreme violence,people killed, shot, that was very shocking to ...however I wasn't particularlyshocked that the circumstance like this happened, because of rhetoric andwhat I knew...so I did not particularly shock me that there had been a confrontation...Iwas really shocked and horrified to find out the gruesomeness of the killings...13/08... 13/35 ...no, nothing direct I know there is a fair amount of literatureout concerning this thing, putting govt. folks in a bad light but I'm notconcerned... 14/06 (BITTER HARVEST)...I thought it was exellenct, that it gave a verygood portrayal of how tis type of person can happen...I thought it was quiteaccurate... 14/38 ...I just wasn't aware of his involvment, in terms of being ina leadersh role...we had no info. about his involvement...to be truthfulI learned a great deal from that book about his leadership and involvement.but I cna't provide anyting other than that... 15/17 ...DAN= I thought it was a first rate sociological treatise ofthe dynamics of how a GK can become such a notorious figure certainly inND...they remembger it in much the same way as they remember the assinationof JFK...it's seared in all of our minds because it's so out of the normfor ND, such heineous violence against law enforement...I thought Mr. Corcorandid a good job of tracing GK's life , the events in his life and how theyshaped his thinking and attitude and culminated in the tragedy in Medina...Ithought he did an excellent job...16/33... I saw a fair amount of the literaturethat was put out by the followeres of GK subsequent to the arrest of theco-defendants...and it bothered me that by virtue of the fed and local rules,that the govt. couldn't give it's side of what had gone on...for a whileit was a romanticized GK against the govt., and I think that what's alwaysbothered me about that is that we are the govt. , we the people, the probationofficers and fed. officers work for the people, the govt. is the people, so if the people are unhappy about it there's lots they can do about itwithout resorting to violence...I never knew GK...but I knew the co-defendantsand I knew...17/20 their feelings of GK...My view of him is that he's articulatewith a very, very plausible explanation for what he's doing and why he'sdoing it, which has a certainly amount of appeal for those who are sociallymaladjusted or politaclly malcontents...and I think that's why he couldtake some poeople like Broer or Faul or his absolute clone was his son Yorie...andmold those people...17/51... DAN CONT...and influence them in a way as well as others and he got and had an audiencehe might not otherwise have had, because times were real tough in agricultureat the time, there were a lot of foreclosures under way and so his idea,heh, it's not you, you're not a poor agri-busniessman, it's the govt. ,it the manipulation of the markets, it's big business, it's communism...it's the govt. willingly or unwillingly serving the aims of communism, ...andhe had , he could engender a following that I don't think would have beenthere, if things hadn't been so tough at that particular time, for farming,and this is an agrigarian state...18/28...DAN CONT...19/29... perhpas to the extent that with a better sense of circustances, maybe a better time and place could have been chosen...by any standardof serving a warrant, they were performing their duties, they were identifiedas law enforcement officers (CUT W/THEY WERE ORDERED TO TAKE THEIR BADGESOFF) ...THEY STATED WHAT THEY WERE THERE TO DO AND THEY HAD AN APX. 9 OR10 MINUTE STANDOFF ...I think that beside Kahl, those other people werethere, and you gotta recall that prior to that incident, they had alreadygone thru the subtrvuge of changing their clothes and cars, so those werewilling accomplices and they were armed...20/14... and unfortunately theyhad more arms than law enforcemtn did...it could have been avoided , I think, that's almost an irrelevant question becasue they were there exercisingtheir duties responsibliy, it could have had alot less tragic outcome ...butwhether you're looking back in retrospect , but as bob said he concernswere starting to grow, and the fact that he talked with the marshals serviceand told them to be caregul and the marshal's service had already been outthere once...20/49... and met with him and they kind of knew that this manwas dangerous, I don't tink that by any stretch of the imagination did theythink that they would meet with this kind of fire power and dispersed firepowerthat they met with...this tells me that these people were ready, they knewit was going to happen and it was just a matter of when, they knew thewarrant was out ther and they were prepared...END DAN...SPEECH 21/11... I'd like to build off of what dan said earlier, you've got torealize you're dealing with ruaral ND... where law enforcement rarely haveto use their weapons, you're not used to that type of resistance, that typeof reaction in any way shape or form...granted I think, hindsight is twenty-twenty...theythought they were doing the best they could at taht time with the info theyhad under the circumstances, who would have thought...21/57,...that youwould have had a military standoff, people assuming positions, and justa real tragic situation as Dan mentioned earlier, knowing the people madeit that much more difficult for us in working with them on a day to daybasis, being friends with them makes it more difficult for us...22/22 (ISSUEOF FAIR TRIAL? AND FAIR SENTENCING?) ...22/45 ...DAN= He's become larger in death than he was in life, he'sleft a legacy , certainly in ND and possibly to militant groups that areanti-govt. , anti-semetic, anti-whatever, yea, he's got a legacy and a lifethere that he doens't deserve...23/11 23/30 DAN= ...John Noah was the chief probation officer at the time andhe retired and I replaced him,...23/45...my role at that time was to writethe presentence report when they were found guilty by a jury...Yori Kahlwould not consent to a presentence interview so I basically based it ona presentence report on his father and from information Mrs. Kahl providedme, his mother... so I got to know Scott FAul fairly well, Vernon Wagnerand David Broer, ...24/16 ...and I , the commentary I saw running thru alltheir lives, the agraian background, the disaffection with the govt., thefeel that the govt. was intrusive that the govt. was too involved with theaverage america's life...(CUT W/ MARLENE GAYSEK TALKING ABOUT HOW MONEYHAS TO BE WITHHELD FROM THE AVERAGE GUYS PAYCHECK OR HE WON'T BE ABLE TOPAY AT THE END OF THE YEAR) ....24/30 ...ah concerns about things like sexeducation in school, this is mostly scott faul who I think was, while probablymore friendly, and closer to Yori still looked at Gordon with degree, ifnot reverence, then certainly who spoke very elequotly for the types ofbeliefs that he had...24/55...uhh, David Broer was sort of the ...intellectof the group and the one who had a lot of lay training in the law, he wasmore much more of a pacifisit in his religious beliefs and as it turnedout at that day in Medina , while he was armed, I don't believe he tookup any arms, but he was involved in some of the changing of cars and clothesand that sort of thing. 25/22... ...vern wagner, I thought was there more for the excitement and thepyrotechnics, you know they were talking about where to get some weaponsor where to get some smoke grenades from here, I don't think he was evera card=carrying memebers of the posse or as radicalized as some of the others...butthere was these common things, I think they thougth the govt. was intrusive,real concerned in what was going on in schools, especially in sex education,I think they were reaal concerned with farm foreclosures...and feeling somewhat,they...26/03 ...they had what I call a victim stance , there wasn't anything wrongwith them, it was the govt. at large, it was the fed govt. it was this greatsatanic conspiracy that was driving them to the wall, and whatever theydid in response to this pressure was something brought on them, it wasn'tsomething they created, it was brought on them...26/26... 26/44 ...that's right , it basically, more often then not...oftentimethe judge doesn't know a lot about the social or biographical info. andsocio-economic, where they were born and raise, army service, where educated,health, finances those things, the pre-sentence report sort of fleshes thatout and the probation officer is a part of that also give an assessment,an evaluation and makes a sentencing recommendation/ I might add that myrecollecgtion that there was very little in that presentence report thatwas challenged by the defense counsel...27/26... 27/47 ...(GOOD TIGHT EYEBALL SHOT) ...it was rather bland actually ,it was based on interviews with family members and a presentence reportdone earlier on his father in texas, so it certainly the same degree offirst hand information that it would normally have...all the other defendantswere very willing to be interviewed , and when appropriate their spouses...davidbroer, his wife in my office, vern wag in his home, they, again in yori'scase, he just wasn't going to talke to me...his attny provided me with someinfo...that was helful...28/37... 28/41... an absolute of his dad, just as militant, just as angry, justas dangerous...28/47...(re:to Yori) 28/49 (GOOD EYES TWITCHING BACK AND FORTH WHILE LISTENING TO QUESTION,TRY LAYING IN SOME OTHER VOICE FROM A PRECEDING SUBJECT WHILE WATCING THOSEEYES...) ...the recommendaitons are confidential...I think that the courtsprimary concern was to hand down sentences that were proportional to therespective defendents involvmen5ts in the events of that day and to thatextent I think that they did...(CUT W/THE TWO JURORS TALKING ABOUT SENTENCING)...29/18... 29/28 ... I'm kind of rememberin g to Bob's earlier characterizationof GK, Scott was personalbe, fairly young man, for a young man, had a fairlylarge family, I think 3 or 4 children...I believe his wife might have beenpregnant at the time...nice family, I remember interviewing his wife...againto look at him and talk with him, he's not the sort of fellow that you'dthink to find in a criminal court charged with such serious offenses...easyto talk with...I thought fairly truthful and forthcoming, even to the extent, when I was getting into the areas of what motivated him that day ... END TAPE #16:30:00 DAN BROOM / BOB HOLIDAY INTERVIEW: STARTTAPE # 16:30:30 DAN= ...so he thought that the authorities wer after him becasue of thetruancy charges... scott faul hadn't been sending his children to school,he was educating them in the home, so he thought the authorities were afterhim for some sor of truancy charges...and there had been some sort of incidentdonw in Utah where a fellow, his children weren't in school, and he hadgot into a conflict with the authorities over that , resulting in this personbeing killed...the impression he gave me was that the same fate lay aheadfor him...but, he also conceded that he knew GK was wanted on a warrantand he also knew they were under surveilance and he was aware of the switchingaround went in the cars and the clothing, so he pretty much knew what wasgoing on, in my view it was a pretty specious explanation...31/29 somethingelse that really stood out in my mind, I asked him, why did you have thatkind of firepower? Why in the world would you have mini-14 s with clipsand taht, that seems a little excessive, he said, well, driving back andforth between home and medina they'd shoot rabbilts and coyotes and that'swhat they'd feed their dogs, 31/51 ...well, that's not a real common undertaking,and to me, they were real rationalized explanations of what went on thatday and they just didn't reach the facts of the matter...32/04... 32/15 ... DAN= ...the earliest that they're eligible is ten years, Ithink that given the background on the case, what went on, I don't lookfor either one of them to be paroled for at least thirty years...interestinglyenough , the parole commission is going out of existence in 1992 and beforethey go out of existence for all inmates currently confined they're goingto have to establish presumtive release dates... so about at the latestof 1992 I will suspect that Yori K and Scott F. will have some idea of whatkind of release dates they're looking at...32/52... 32/58 ...the comprehensive crime cotrol act of 1984...they are requiredthat within five years that they set presumptive release dates... 34/06 ...well I think they were both involved, ...as I recall it wasgenerally thought that Yori shot first...and the trailer owners identifiedScott as being right by their trailer... I believe that forensics identifiedthe bullets from their rifles...Yori was believed to have shot first, coursehe went down fairly quickly in that action, I believe that Muir got offa pitol shot that got Yori in the pistol butt and then I think it was BradKapp that got the shotgun blast off that got him in the stomach and puthim out of the action...Scott was shooting... I think he was identifiedas shooting by other people there...I think they were both , from Yori beingthe precipatator with Scott joining in once it happened,... 35/31... the people there that were right on the scene or those thatwere right in the town that heard it, that were viet nam veterans, saidit sounded just like a fire fight in viet nam...a lot of shooting, quicklyand then it was over... 35/42... I think one of the most chilling things that came out of allof this, was , the couple that was in the trailer home , the descriptionof the summarily execution of Bob Chesire by Gordon....36/00... 37/24 ...It doesn't effect us in the same way...doesn't have a titilatingvalue,,, we see the bizarre routinely...I don't think I'll ever be devoidof feeling of what went on in Medina...that I cannot sense the tragedy acrossthe board...for all the families involved, not just the federal officers...thestate officers, but for the other families involved....to some extent touse a biblical quote, the sins of the fathers are going to be visited onthe sons. and I'm talking of scott faul's children, be without a father,bob chesire's children will be without a father...Ken Muir's grandchildrenand children...just a trememdous tragedy...38/32... 38/43 ... I think just to say that he was an empty intellectual , hefancied himself as some sort of a lay lawyer type guy, the kind of guy whowould read for a law degree and then be allowed to practise, ...I sensedthat he was more of a pseudo-intellect...I don't thiknn there was any depthto his intellect...but kind of place where you use a few llegal terms andyou get some defference paid...he could talk the talk...I dohnt' think thereany intellectual depth to Broer, he was a craftsman by trade...and I liketo think ...he may have, he carried a collapsible stock shotgun and so hebanished the armerment like the others did, and I think he articulated therhetoric, but when the moment came he didn't do anythinkg...and to thatextent I don't think his committment was really as great as the others invovledthat day...39/56... and thank god they weren't cause I'm not sure we wouldn'thave had a worse blood bath than we did...he was a family man, I think itwas a family that was close,...his wife was very close during this time...hemay be off parole at this time...I didn't see him as being as big of a playeror as strongly held in his beliefs... certainly to the point of taking itto violence that day as the others...40/33... 41/04 ...again I did the presentence,...Vernon wagner was what I calleda groupie...he might have been prosylitized...he didn't have the furvor...proabablyfascinated by some sort of little militant cell operating out there in themiddle of the state, carrying weapons around..I don't see him as being anysort of a strong follower...and I think he pretty much boke off from that...hevoluntarily surrendered...43/06... 42/49... what you're asking is two quesitons, we in ND are not used tothis kind of violence...it's just so totally alien for us here, and to theextent maybe that was the achilles heels that day for the marshals, yes,Ken Muir was no novice at law enforcement...he 'd done a lot of work, hewas a skilled pistol shooter...I think if anything our complancyi got usin trouble that day...to me it doesn't matter...a lot of people say, geeit was just a misdemeanor, was it worth that? ...44/05 ...well, if you'regoing to have laws and you'r going to enforce them then and you're goingto have nay integrety in the system then you've got to enforce them...Idon't see any difference.. I think the publice has this idea, the mysticof the fed marshal, and it's a sort of romanticists things...a law enforcementofficer doing his duty is a man that's worthy of the community respoect...44/56... 45/20 ...(BOB, WHO'S THE ACTOR TO PLAY YOU?) .... that's a really difficultquestion...James ARness....I've always been a gunsmoke fan,,, a similarsize... 46/41 ... there was a fair amount of it going thru at the time, we hadother pople that were invovled in the tax protest movement, some we believedhad some posse comitatus affiliation or at least identifying with them...therewas a time when some things were going on over in Wisconsin... 47/10 ...I think it was almost as if it was, one of those things wherethe events....Gokrdon was building towards taht day, it took a real devastiatedfarm economby, some real disaffected people, even the average person todayhas some concerns, we just went thru this big budget hassle and are we goingto raise taxes or not? and everybody politically distances themselve...Ithink there's a lot of anitipayhty in america at large over taxation andprobably a large audience that would say heh, I'd like to keep more of myearning for myself, but they wouldn't take up arm.s...against their govt.to protest it in that manner...I think it was the extraodinary lengths thatGjordon went to the fact that he was anble to engender a following not necessarybecause of his views, but because when pepole are unhappy and they feellike they're being victimized, it is easier, to internalize belief system.sor they reationlize... I'ma god fearing military man ...twice decorated,it's not me, it's what you guys are going to me and what bob representedin a fed. official...48/37... 48/41... no, iin fact I'm a christian, ...I am too...BOB= building offwhat dan said, I think it was the circumstances, back in the early eighties,the farm crisis was so great, as Corcoran's book bitter Harvest, exactlywhat was going on, the atmosphere was so great for building hatred againstthe govt., the anger and hatred against the banks, against the govt....allthes types of things...I , it was just an unfortuante set of cicumstances,a great tragedy for those on both sides... anywayere in the country, a...ruralarea..devoid of this type of thing happening...affected so many lives...49/59... 52/07 ...I don't know what else in the file you might be interesteedin, the rest was just court records...*****53/23... one thing we always kind of had a quiestion about, as far asdonw in texas, what motivated them to drop the charge the first time , theywithdrew the charge the first time??? And it kind of went back, in my opinon,it created a situation that could have embolden Gordon Kahl and I believethat was pointed out in the book. ... Embolden him to bleive that nobody'sgoing to do anything to me...I can just do whatever I want...I'd be interestedin finding that out myself, just find out why they pulled back and dind'tpursue it.....54/21 ...right, right, I don't know if it got to a warrant or a summonsto start with,,, but we weren't involved iwth it... there was a lengthyperiod of time where is was back and forth...I think Jim comvered it inhis book...???****** 55/18...I never really knew that, I know the marshals were a little relunctantbecasue of the mideamnor status and the pltential for violence. ...as Dansaid one nation of laws , you can't pick which law to enforce and whichone not too...(CUT W/PANKOW GRIPPING ABOUT THE TRAFFIC TICKET BEING WAVED)... 56/01...DAN OFF CAMERA TALKING ABOUT THE WARRANT... the chronology inresponse to a letter that bob sent down that Gahl was not going to complyand they at that time, He put a petition together asking for court action...and that was court authorized...the court signed off on that, I don't rememberwhether it was a summons or a warrant, but subsequently that was quashed,that's the legal word for dismissed. And a letter went out from Swan toKahl saying it's been dismissed and we hope that you'll cooperate or whatever,...after that happened, when he still didn't comply, and he wasn't , andit probably was clear to them from the day they sent it that he wasn't. Then there was a new petition alleging violation of probation executedand a warrant was requested, and that's the one, essentially the secondone that the attempt was made to serve on february 13... (JJ "AND YOUWERE WONDERING ABOUT THE SECOND ONE? OR THE FIRST ONE?) 57/13...the first one, and the length, the time frame involved there,I think, I understand like what Dan has just said, is what happened, becausethen it came back, that's how my name came in it, because my name was usedon the probation violation petition alleging that GK had not been submittinghis monthly reports...and I think what had happened is texas had attemptedto initaite some dialog . To try to get some communicaton or something going,and it just wasn't working out, so they made a decison to do it again...butas I mentioned earlier, I felt a little in the dark here in ND as to whatwas going on down in texas...58/22 ...cause he was so obvious in violationand he was that was his stand, he said I'm not going to do it! And it wasalmost, okay, I've done my part now it's up to you to do your part...althoughI don't, I belieive in my heart that he was not intending for it to endup the way it did, I really do. In my heart Ibelieve that...I did not intendfor that for that type of violence to occur or ...58/54... (BOB IS EXPRESSINGREMORSE) DAN CHIMES IN OFF CAMERA...the probation officer has a statutoryduty to keep the court informed as to the conduct and behavior of a probationerand to enforce conditions, in this case there was a special condition ,saying that he would file a return...(WHICH REMINDS ME, NOBODY HAS MENTIONEDTHE OTHER CONDITION OF GK'S PROBATION WHICH WAS NOT TO ASSOCIATE WITH ANYGROUPS THAT ADVOCATE ...) ...59/11... ...so he was in obvious violation, Bob has a statutaory, ministerialduty to enforce that condition. and thats, you can see GK knew from theday the sentence was pronounced , in the one count he was sent off to thecamp, that it was going to escalate. That he was going to be held accountable,that there would be consequences for his failure. Now maybe that put himinto a difficult , if not irreconciliable position because he says, I'mgoing to be held accountable...and I'm not going to comply with the courtsconditions...so we were on an irreversible course...given that kind of thinkingthat he had (FREEDOM OF SPEECH ISSUE)...59/56...AND THAT HE Was a NorthDakotian, that had been living down in Texas and had been adjudicated downthere and had decided to come back to ND is how we got involved to beginwith...the jurisdiction was never transferred up here...17/00/18 GOOD TCU OF BOB'S FINGERS RUBBING... 17/01/35 ...GOOD SHOT OF BOB WATCHING ME LOOK AT PAPERS, WITH HANDS CLASPED... ENDS @17/03/00apx HOLLIDAY/BROOM INTERVIEW: TAPE #17 02/11... Gordon's just been consistenct all the way thru...he's consistant...he'ssaid what he believes...have you talked to Yorie...? 3/47 ...I can never remember, if Yorie was there one of the times whenI was there, ...I think a daught was there...4/10 ...I saw some material that said I was out there and I was scaredto death... 5/50...this diatribe was strange... END BROOM/HOLIDAY @17/07/33 ABANDONED FARM SHOTS...
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A timeline of the life of Gordon Kahl, from early childhood interests, to his marriage to Joan Kahl, his decorated military experience,
his outspoken tax protest, the Medina shootout, and his unusual death in Arkansas in 1983.
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VARIETY / Indie documaker Jeffrey F. Jackson sticks it to the IRS and the Feds in "Death & Taxes," a hard-hitting reinvestigation of the 1983 Gordon Kahl case, about which questions still linger. Jackson's unfazed, investigative reporting-style approach and inventive handling of familiar material make this a controversial item for fests and progressive webs. Non-U.S. viewers will also get a charge out of its conspiracy theme. read more
CHRONICLES MAGAZINE / Gordon Kahl was a simple farmer who became famous for not filing income tax returns. Imprisoned and hounded by IRS agents who never did prove he owed any amount of money, Kahl and his son were involved in a shootout with police. The son is still serving a prison sentence, but the father was surrounded and shot in Arkansas by police officers who mutilated and burned his body. read more
GUNS & AMMO / A new video documentary, Death & Taxes, details a case of government murderously out of control that was briefly mentioned in the October 1994 Guns & Ammo article "The Ugly Truth About Gun Control." Death & Taxes is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer and decorated World War II veteran, and his apparent death at the hands of federal agents. read more
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Now Available!This set of 6 DVD's comprises over 13 hours of uncut footage, including a 2+ hour prison interview with Yorie Kahl, and candid interviews with wife Joan Kahl. In this rich stockpile of research, you'll find many more threads than could reasonably be pursued in the final feature.
The Death & Taxes Miniseries DVD Set Includes...
01: Gordon Kahl Meets With Head North Dakota U.S. Marshal Bud Warren (60 min)
02: The Beginning: Gordon Kahl's military experience and views on a variety of subjects (93 min)
03: Gordon's Texas Tax Trial (90 min)
04: Medina Shootout (60 min)
05: Gordon Kahl Was...: A montage of over 25 people describing who Gordon Kahl was in their eyes. (50 min)
06: Mysterious Death In Arkansas (90 min)
07: Media Circus: Chronological portrayal of Gordon Kahl in the media (70 min)
08: Yorie Kahl Prison Interview (150 min)
09: Joan Kahl Uncut Interviews (120 min)
A little-known fact regarding Death & Taxes is the surprising connection to Timothy McVeigh and the ATF / Oklahoma City Bombing. Here's a clip of Jackson sharing the story during a director's commentary on his film Postal Worker.
The story of Gordon Kahl so captured the attention of mainstream America that it was turned into a highly-rated made-for-television movie titled
In The Line of Duty - Manhunt In The Dakotas.
DEATH & TAXES is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer who became America's "most-wanted" fugitive. How had a WWII war hero become the target of one of the largest manhunts in FBI history?
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The badly burned remains of Gordon Kahl, with an island of skin that shows he was in a prone position at the time of the fire.
Was Kahl a racist, gun-toting fanatic? Or a victim of an IRS policy of harassing vocal tax protestors into silence to keep the rest of us intimidated? Did Bill Clinton conspire to cover-up the torture and execution of Gordon Kahl in Arkansas? Did federal agents mutilate and burn the body to cover-up the murder of the wrong man?
DEATH & TAXES follows the trail of Gordon Kahl as his body is exhumed for a new autopsy. Building on newsreel clips covering two fiery shootouts and hundreds of interviews -- with IRS agents and federal prosecutors as well as Kahl's family and supporters -- D&T explores the myths and controversies surrounding a man who dared to challenge the federal income tax system. Some revile Kahl as a cop killer. Others revere him as an American patriot. Which was he?
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