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Jack McLamb

Jack McLamb interview: April 4, 1990
They asked the Gov. to order an anti-tank weapon in blow that bunker
up. "He laughed and said that if they'd a got everything they wanted
they would have blown that whole building and everything in it to pieces."
says Jack referring to Tom Goodwin of the AK state police. 2:30
I think they would really like to see these people brought to justice
but they know it would hurt them.
4:16 "I said to Doug, we've got enough here to convict these guys,
we've got them flat ... he said he'd get back to me after the first of the
year...it's a nasty, nasty thing. ...I think they'd prefer it'd just die
down and everything be forgotten...
5:15 pan to Jack "I came to work in Phoenix in 1976, I entered the
police academy. It turns out I was the oldest guy in the academy . I was
thirty-to years of ageThey called me the Grandad.
6:30 I was looking forward to a lifelong career... I helped develop
programs that went across the U.S.
8:40 I was certified as a police instructor. It wasn't unusual for
training officers to critic shooting situations around the country. ...what
could have been done differently to save lives. 10:08 On feb 13, 1983
federal officers attempted to serve a warrant on Gordan Kahl. ...within
hours his name became known to officers.
11:23 I had emotions that were not uncommon to law enforcement officers...police
officers have a esprit de corp. We were upset... people around the dept.
were saying if this Kahl guy comes our way, we'll handle him.
13:20 critic what was done right and what was done wrong... this is
what was done.
14:30 Immediately I began to have problems with what we were briefed
on... I began to have trouble with police officers as to what officers did.
I saw immediately that there were severe violations of tactical and arrest
procedures. ...the most basic procedures were vilolated...to see these flagrant
violations in a plan to supposedly arrest individuals... began to bring
up red flags... you have two typse of arrest .
18:30 one of the basic violations they actually chose a time when they
knew he would be with friends and relatives... that was the first red flag...that
was the first red flag...they also knew that he was at a meeting where they
had guns... why would you set up a risk where you knew there would be problems.
20:00 the conclusion therefore after reviewing the procedures used...you
don't find these type of mistakes...you have to assume that the arreest
scenario was set up to illicit a violant situation...if you understand police
techniques...if they used basic techniques that lead to violence you have
to come to that conclusions...
22:45 I hadf several areas of information to gather from
23:10 Bud Warren...I received a letter he had wrote to the wife of Ken
Muir. (GET THAT LETTER!) bud describes the attitude of Muir as being rather
cocky and did not have good intentions in doing the arrest. He also stated
that there was good reason not to arrest Gordan. He metioned that the arrest
warrant was not good.
26: pan from city... We again heard another shootout had occurred and
another officer was killed. We heard that the infamous Gordan Kahl had
killed another officer. emotions ran high, we had another fellow officer
perish. ... I was interested in how this had happened..we're not used to
being outgunned...
28:30 as I looked at this case I again saw that the police reports did
not match the physical evidence.
29:10 when the physical evidence of a crime scene don't match what the
witnesses you have a problem. ...this generated keen interest in ...we're
not used to seeing contradiction between police reports and physical evidence.
I was invited to come to arkansas to do an investigation...in July of
87 I travelled to akansas...
I met with Tommy Goodwyn, the director of the Arkansas state police
4:50 I knew immediately when I stepped off the footage at the cimre
scen e that the alleged Gordan Kahl did not shoot Gene Mathews and vice
versa...this was so traumatic for me...I had a number of sleepless nights.
6:30 what I had seen bothered me so much that I decided I wanted other
officers to come in and help evaluate the evidence. August 1987 I returned
and kind of held my breath as officers came in and filtered through the
evidence. 8:30 It just totally blew our minds ...we knew the govt. had
lied ... who killed our brother officer and why? we had all kinds of emotions
in this thing. ...we went to the man who had done the autopsied.
9:40 the autopsy reports are wrong, they're just deceptive, the man
decieved us with those reports. ...the skul he said had 32 teeth and GK's
dental records up north have 28. We found out the officers shoot had be
shoot three times and not two.
12:05 we've put together a case which we think proves what happened
out there...we need to be able to legally call people in... we're struggling
with all the evidence. We have evidence that the police officers themselves
killed the officer.
14:15 What began to happen where I realized that law enforcement was
the problem with this case... it was law enforcement that caused the deaths
in ND and AK...no one was interested...acutally very concerned that this
would get out to the public. I also didn't like the fact that these viol3nt
acts were caused by officers. 16:00 I went from being the most decorated
officer in the city of Phoenix to the most fired officer. within several
years I was fired twice ...
17:20 it's caused tremendous hardship on me and my family ...when you
have facts that sumstantiated wrongdoing that you don't sweep it under the
carpet. 18: a few of us officers are trying to get this case before a unbiased
hearing for years now and we've been unable.
22:30 they started following me night and day... to build a case against
me to find something wrong... they found out one of my cars had an expired
license plate on it. ...I got injured... I wasn't able to transfer into
another job ...medical retirement. 26:00 since I've worked on this case
there has been evidence from Wash. DC and the state of AK that I should
back off,
27:30 these are the types of things that happen in other nations...
28:30 I think pressure is coming from higher law enforcement agencies.
29:20 that producer called me and asked if he could come and be in AK
during our board of inquiry. This producer didn't arrive. ...He said that
the head of FBI had come out and met with Charles Kupferer 30:50 We had
a conference call and we were intimidated by this man. and a few weeks
later all the investors had pulled out of the project.
The identity church. ... I met Len Martin who put out a newsletter about
what happened to the Kahl family. I met with Pastor Ron Poach. They did
a videotape and they were interested in the ND mistakes. ...
5:30 Zoom out on Phoenix. ...8:30 TALKING ABOUT G. K.
the media portrayed him as a violent man... I think he was ...
11:20 there is no indication that throughout his life he had a violent
man. He's been an impecable guy... this man is not at all like we hear
in the media. ...I wish I had neighbors ...like GK, who lived by their
beliefs...I don't think any man could handle it any different...Bud Warren
14:00 if they really wanted to arrest that man without violence they
could have.
15:00 ...it's a possiblity that someone wanted to silence GK...the farmers
were listening to him. ...he was preaching and teaching to farmers how
to stop the bank from foreclosing on them. when you are up against the
banks in this country you are tugging on superman's cape. ...the evidence
we find is of a strong headed , bullheaded US Marshal who was going to get
this GK...
17:40 My wife would tell you that because of the precautions I take
that I am in fear of something. ...I know that things happen...I aam more
in fear of not doing something. ...I am more worried about what could happen
to our nation if we don't have our police doing the rightr thing...
We can't have people executed in the community and cover them up.
20:40 I take precautions...but being a police officer you become used
to it... for the first time in my life I'm not as worried about the criminal
element outside as much as inside the govt.
Jack telling the story of the AK burnout. stiff.
Jack McLamb - exhumation
Tape #6
JJ Jack what are we doing? where going?
JM: Culmination of 2.5 years of planning - last phase of investigation
done by officers around the country. What actually happened to our fellow
sheriff in ARK and the alleged GK in the shoot out down there. Both of
them perished...officers became concerned by local sheriff dying. The
info we rec'd & the conflicting info in police reports doing invest
since '87 end of it we hope for us-- end of trail will be the exhumation
of the alledged GK's body here in ND.
JJ: nine years later
JM: Nine years later don't know what we'll find autopsy not just
errors but an attempt to cover up certain info of the all GK. This seond
autopsy will tell that GK or alleg GK because not really sure it is GK
to identify his remains. How he perished and lay to rest stories - dismembered
intentionally burned -- and so forth. Lay to rest stories and come
up with enough information to help our case
What happens next after Noguchi will help us put together a crime scene
diagram exactly what autopsy shows him and what happened to the all GK body
- drawings to scale of crime sc. - and he'll use that and put body in position
and show us how he was shot..
JJ: Tests he will run?
JM: 6 or 8 tests the list is in my briefcase. He'll be doing tests
to prove identity of GK x rays ,dental records of GK. He'll compare them
see if this is GK tests to see if appendages cut off instead of burned
off. The 1st autopsy said fires so intense the appendages burned off.
He performs test called space technology where he can look at the ends
of the bone with certain types of devices to see if metal came in contact
ie. a saw or axe so there's where he hope we'll lay to rest --dismembering
body. lost one of the feet-- found weeks later at fire scene we don't
know how lost foot.
He'll find out if there were accelerants on the body. Dr. Noguchi
warned that in the 1st aut opsy the body was washed and then at burial
before embalmed - washed again. If accelerants used - still residue
not sure if he can find this out. Other test....story may have some credence
if burned mattress & springs looking for any circular patterns --
at the crime scene the was a mattress with only springs left. red hot and
left there mark.
JJ type of bullet?
JM: He hopes to find skull intact, do measurement of bullet entering
brain skull get diameter of projectile that made that hole
all speculative ideas
tell the trajectory of the bullet entering the head and where it stopped
bullet supposedly stopped here and showed through what direction bullet
came from
Also we have a body that has been buried with parts removed -- foot,
the head, lower jaw all removed. Test to see if all parts belon to the
same body torso, you might say. The widow, Joan the jaw was not that
of her husband -- knew size of his jaw and his teeth, "That's not my
husband's jaw."
Dr. Noguchi and his assist Bill Breckinrige to do any test they feel
JJ: Problems lining up exhumation?
Started 2 mo ago last year. first contacted county coroner Mark Nelson.
He has 2 funeral homes in area in charge of 3 cemeteries -- his job to
do exhumatons and burials. Police officers and Joan Kahl - if he would
check out procedure to get exhuming permit. "Sure." He checked
it out and sent me copy of actual permit form that Joan had to fill out.
Last year we wanted to go forward and after we went to Dr. Noguchi and
Bill Breckinridge we found ou the cost would be almost twice ($12,000
before) then tests and examinations = 20,000. Our fault didn't have
that kind of money among the police last year raising funds from police
officers and people concerned.
Last month contacted Mark Nelson to start the procedures to get permit
to exhume the body.
JJ: Immediate problems the last day?
J Process of setting up went well making arrangement. Day before
to start -- me on a plane from Phoenix (yeserday) almost ready to leave
for the day and phone rings and its Mark Nelson - "We have a problem."
Bad times for problems day before.."Well we don't have the permit.
He understood and checked health dept. why and have Joan K sign papers
and no problem Well some way, the county attorney (state's att) found
out that this was going to be done He wanted Joan to ask his permission
by letter & also indicated exactly why she wanted it then he would
decide if he would allow. Mark Nelson didn't know that this was required
Mark said We've got to get Joan to do this I'm not doing it without his
permisssion -- he sort of runs the county I called Joan in Calif. I
said I'd type up a letter and told her what he was requesting...permission..
and that we would state (her main concern) : Is it indeed my husband or
not? this is what we put in the letter.
And there is conflicting evidence in the autopsy report -- so she can
get on with her life...I faxed to her; she signed and faxed to county
attorney. Mark went over and saw him and he said he was going on vacation
this afternoon (last night) and he would give his answer next week when
he returned. So the answer is no at this point. So of course after 2
months of setting this all up we now find ourselves totally stopped in our
tracks discuss this with Mark we agreed it wasn't right and I would
research the law and I hung up. Mark had told me that there was no way
he would go around this man ..he was too powerful and he would not step
on his toes. Immediately I called ND and got some people to go to the
law resesarch library to research it. What I didn't know was that Mark
went to the attorny general
of the state - a lady - he met with her and told her and she told him
she would research it herself. So we had 2 people researching this. Well
I received by fax from my people from the law library ...that indicated
there was no necessity for them to be involved. Called Mark and he told
me attorney general was researching too. Late in the day, closing at 5
(now 3 or 4) Mark says I will call you the min. I hear from her. Lose
money, facilities, plane tickets all bought..etc. 3 min. til 5 no 15
min to 5 Mark said still haven't heard. They close at 5 "I will
call her immediately. I'll call you back." I'm watching my clock
in AZ one min. after 5 3 afte 5 I call Mark Mark said "She's giving
us permission. All you have to do is produce the death certificate.
This threw a loop I NOne of us had death certif. I called Joan Kahl and
she said NO she doesn't know where it is she has moved 4 or 5 times.
Joan said call her daughter in TX and ask if she has one. daughter said
she'd look .
JJ: So is there a death certificate right now?
JM: Mark Nelson knew where there would be a dearh certificate from
9 years ago when he buried GK he had to have a death certif on file - but
offices closed now.
Right now I still have not spoken to Mark I think Mark would have called
me if he had not found a death certificate.
JJ: Who will we meet with ahead? What are your fears?
JM: the only people in ND concerned I could trust don't want the
media...is some of the people who knew GK and his wife. I called Karen
Myers only phone no. I had asked her if I could get...
The county coroner about 3 wks ago said he was concerned about media
event and he would refuse to exhume if there was a circus (media) "if
I come and this happens we're going to turn around and leave. I want only
2 people there smeone to record and myself." I was concerned about
one thing..such a sensitive case lot of people in govt.-- to see we don't
get this case reopened. they would be very concerned if knew of ex huming
the body. I don't want to speak ill of federa; officers bit fact is they've
done a very fine job of covering up the situation that we know now did
occur. that and so concerned possibility of fed officers would come in
here at the time of exhumation and try to taint or spoil chain of evidence.
Now you have the casket up, we're going to inspect it to make sure you
didn't put anyting in to incriminate some of our federal officers. If
they do open casket they can taint it --just fact it's opened. Don't want
intimidation factor there. We asked some citizens concerned about the
case to come and be on the periphery on the streets outside the area with
two-way radios --on the outskirts of the cemetery so if the feds come in
we asked them no guns camera and tape recorders only. This will intimidate
anybody who would come in to destroy evidence. We're going to meet these
peole now. I told them not to approach cemetery unless contacted by 2-way

with interviews of...
Joan Kahl
Yorie Kahl
Lynn Crooks
Toots Mathis
Dennis Fisher
John Noah
Irv Nodland
Bill Kennelly
Prof. Ed Gran
Jack McLamb
Delores Everts
Scarlet Skiftu
Herman Widicker
August Pankow
Victor Seil
Marlys Klimek
Ron Perleberg
Len Martin
Brad Kapp
Robert Holiday
Tom Lee
Ed Fitzpatrick
Gene Nail
Buford Terrell
Marlene Gaysek
Bob Ralston
Darrel Graf
Steve Schnabel
Jack Swan
Loreen Dyck
Mark Stagg
Sheriff Ray Weatherby
Jack Miller
Tracy Adams
Allison Hoffman
Jeffrey F. Jackson
production design
Jim Haddon
Peter Lloyd
film editing
Tracy Adams
Martyn Hone
Jeffrey F. Jackson
original music by
Tracy Adams
sound department
Tracy Adams
Jeffrey F. Jackson
Rex Reddick
produced by
Jeffrey F. Jackson
Angela Kaye
writing by
Jeffrey F. Jackson
directed by
Jeffrey F. Jackson
A timeline of the life of Gordon Kahl, from early childhood interests, to his marriage to Joan Kahl, his decorated military experience, his outspoken tax protest, the Medina shootout, and his unusual death in Arkansas in 1983.
VARIETY /   Indie documaker Jeffrey F. Jackson sticks it to the IRS and the Feds in "Death & Taxes," a hard-hitting reinvestigation of the 1983 Gordon Kahl case, about which questions still linger. Jackson's unfazed, investigative reporting-style approach and inventive handling of familiar material make this a controversial item for fests and progressive webs. Non-U.S. viewers will also get a charge out of its conspiracy theme. read more
CHRONICLES MAGAZINE /   Gordon Kahl was a simple farmer who became famous for not filing income tax returns. Imprisoned and hounded by IRS agents who never did prove he owed any amount of money, Kahl and his son were involved in a shootout with police. The son is still serving a prison sentence, but the father was surrounded and shot in Arkansas by police officers who mutilated and burned his body. read more
GUNS & AMMO /   A new video documentary, Death & Taxes, details a case of government murderously out of control that was briefly mentioned in the October 1994 Guns & Ammo article "The Ugly Truth About Gun Control." Death & Taxes is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer and decorated World War II veteran, and his apparent death at the hands of federal agents. read more
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Death & Taxes (DVD)
First time on DVD (113 min)
Death & Taxes (VHS)
This is a limited edition collector's VHS in the original unbroken packaging. (113 min)
Death & Taxes Miniseries (DVD)
Set of 6 DVD's comprising the complete uncut footage from the documentary film project. (783 min)
Gordon Kahl: Godfather of the militia movement
Now Available!
This set of 6 DVD's comprises over 13 hours of uncut footage, including a 2+ hour prison interview with Yorie Kahl, and candid interviews with wife Joan Kahl. In this rich stockpile of research, you'll find many more threads than could reasonably be pursued in the final feature.
The Death & Taxes Miniseries DVD Set Includes...
01: Gordon Kahl Meets With Head North Dakota U.S. Marshal Bud Warren (60 min)
02: The Beginning: Gordon Kahl's military experience and views on a variety of subjects (93 min)
03: Gordon's Texas Tax Trial (90 min)
04: Medina Shootout (60 min)
05: Gordon Kahl Was...: A montage of over 25 people describing who Gordon Kahl was in their eyes. (50 min)
06: Mysterious Death In Arkansas (90 min)
07: Media Circus: Chronological portrayal of Gordon Kahl in the media (70 min)
08: Yorie Kahl Prison Interview (150 min)
09: Joan Kahl Uncut Interviews (120 min)
The connection between Gordon Kahl, Timothy McVeigh, and the Oklahoma City Bombing
A little-known fact regarding Death & Taxes is the surprising connection to Timothy McVeigh and the ATF / Oklahoma City Bombing. Here's a clip of Jackson sharing the story during a director's commentary on his film Postal Worker.
Manhunt in the Dakotas
The story of Gordon Kahl so captured the attention of mainstream America that it was turned into a highly-rated made-for-television movie titled In The Line of Duty - Manhunt In The Dakotas.

DEATH & TAXES is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer who became America's "most-wanted" fugitive. How had a WWII war hero become the target of one of the largest manhunts in FBI history? Gordon Kahl U.S. Marshalls Most Wanted Fugitive
Gordon Kahl's charred and burned remains were reexamined after his exhumation. The island of unburned skin shows that Kahl's body was likely positioned against the floor at the time he was set on fire.
The badly burned remains of Gordon Kahl, with an island of skin that shows he was in a prone position at the time of the fire.
Was Kahl a racist, gun-toting fanatic? Or a victim of an IRS policy of harassing vocal tax protestors into silence to keep the rest of us intimidated? Did Bill Clinton conspire to cover-up the torture and execution of Gordon Kahl in Arkansas? Did federal agents mutilate and burn the body to cover-up the murder of the wrong man?
DEATH & TAXES follows the trail of Gordon Kahl as his body is exhumed for a new autopsy. Building on newsreel clips covering two fiery shootouts and hundreds of interviews -- with IRS agents and federal prosecutors as well as Kahl's family and supporters -- D&T explores the myths and controversies surrounding a man who dared to challenge the federal income tax system. Some revile Kahl as a cop killer. Others revere him as an American patriot. Which was he?