INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPTS

Lorna

Lorna Adkins, Gordon's oldest living daughter,

LORNA#1

LORNA INTERVIEW:

TAPE O1:

LORNA#1

03/14 ...second to the oldest... linda, and then me, and Lonnie, then

Yorie and then Freddie and then she's the last straw...

probably more temperment wise I'm most like him. I'm probably have the

most patience...I think my mannerism is more gentle is the word I'm looking

for...

04/20 ...you know where you had referred to him as the strong type, this

isn't the projection I have at all, to me he was very meek, mild, humble,

compassionate, patient, easy-going...not domineering or forceful or arrogant

like it has been potrayed since this thing came out... one of the things

that surprised me most was somebody thought he was six foot tall , this

macho type, it surpised me because this is the image they got from TV,

he was small, he was quiet, never pushy... the image they had him was like

this wild western. To me that wasn't him at all.

05/43 ...in his inner convictions he was strong in his mannerisms he

was very mild. ...this is why he was no threat, they wanted to portray him

as a threat...it served their purpose...to instill fear in people. ....the

things that he enjoyed in life were basic, like nature, he belived in smelling

the roses along the way. he wasn't flamboyant or anything like this...

LORN1

06/48 (MEDIA) ...I felt like the image that they tried to portray across

the television was that he would , he was dangerous, that he was a threat,

they were trying to get people to help them find him.. If they'd portrayed

him as he was, nobody would have tried to help them. What they were seeking

was some help in trying to apprehend him ...if they had actually portrayed

the truth they wouldn't have had any help and they knew it. ...so the portrayal

had to be some vigilante type. ,,,I think from the very beginning they knew

it was going to be difficult.

08/17 ...I thought the book was totally rediculous, from one end to

another... as I read it, I thought Jim was on a bandwagon. ...I would

have loved to see a book written that just showed the facts... he was on

a bandwagon...this anti-semetic thing...the view that he, say jewish people

that he had hard feelings, they had names, they were certain highpowered

political people, they weren't just jewish. people. ...it was like he was

...the book should have been entitled, "Anti-semitic", this was

all I heard in it. every few lines, he was trying to bring a point across,

becasue anytime you bring out racism, it stirs people up ,,,this is the

only point of this book was he's antisemitic , so he's got to be bad. these

people have names, ...the book from one end to another was just ridiculous.

11/07 ...I thought for a person of Jim Corcoran's status that it was

a comic book

...I was disappointed, I was anxious to read this book he covered this

in ND, I thought this is going to be the book, to cover the facts, what

happened, how it came about...the mistakes that were made on both sides.

...somewhere, sometime down the line that the facts come out ... and whether

it's bad for dad or for the govt., let the chips fall where they may...

I would just love to see the truth come out.

13/33 ...Well see, this is how, terrorism comes under different degrees,

this is just another form of terrorism, some people want to call it retatialtion...

we as americans are appalled when we see it in other countries and then

it happens right here on on front door step, it's just terrorism, that's

all it is. (CUT W/AJAY'S definition of "Terrorism" & w/Anita's,

"If the American people knew about political prisoners here in our

own country...")

14/32 (Loreen) ...no I hadn't read it. Anything that I had read was

just a bunch of garbage...it makes me real angry...I can't deal with it

real well, ...it's been something I haven't talked about very much ...it's

been real hard to deal with, the atrocities that happened...and how life's

just gone on, and our family's been destoyed...I get really sick of the

sensationalism, that was one of the things that all thru the years since

Medina, it's really disgusted me. I haven't had the patience to go thru

it. I guess I've been ignorant about it all...I guess call it self=preservation...it's

just my own coping mechanism

15/54 ...I guess the reason I'm more object...I'd talk to dad about it

so many times...because I knew sooner or later that something could go wrong..anytime

that you're anti=anything, it doesn't matter there's always another side

..a pro and an anit, it can cause problesm...

LORNA#1

16/15...I talked to him about this ...he always called me bug, he said,

"oh, Bug, I'm not the first Christian that will be thrown to the lions

and I won't be the last.." and I knew he knew what he was up against.

And I knew that nothing was going to change his mind and I tried everything

to change his mind. ...just lay low, leave it alone, drop it, you're an

oldman, you're not going to live much longer ... I tried every tactic on

this, and when I quit, the day I quit was the day he told me,

17/14 ..."don't you understand, it's not that I won't, it's that

I can't. And that I can understand, so then I quit. I knew he knew what

he was doing. I knew he knew the purpose of it and I knew that he knew

the price and that eventually it could cost him his life. and I knew that

he felt that he was doing the right thing, so when he told me it's not that

I won't it's that I can't, just leave it alone ...so I dropped it.

18/05 (LORNA WIPING TEARS)

18/36 ,,,he was a real good father, he was real gentle... for a long

time there was just the two of us, linda and me, she was real hyper and

I was real gentle...

18/56 ...my first memory of him and my last ... the last time I ever

seen him alive both of em was we was fishing... the very first one...we

were in the boat and LInda just wouldn't sit still ...I remember he had

to row us to the side and put her off...and I caught more fish than him...

and then the last memory I have of him was I had gone to arkasas

LORNA#1

...it was the easter before this happened in Feb. , we were fishing and

he told me he had too much work to do, and I caught that first fish and

here he comes down the hill and starts fishing with me. and that was the

last time that I seen him alive. ...

I'm real glad that I went down there... never thinking that it would

be the last, when we were kids he was extremeely patient...

20/29 ...one time he tried to teach me how to swim and I didn't like

this at all ...and I reached up and hit him in the jaw and he had that steel

plate in his jaw, and I testified to that in Ark. , that's one of the things

that they wanted to know about. so I knew about thisw plate that he had

from WWI....the patience that he had with all the kids,...six kids would

drive me crazy. He never seemed, the noise or racket..we'd ask him questions,

but sometimes we wouldn't becasue we'd get too long of an answer. ...I would

go to spend the night with other kids and I was always so happy to get home

cause these other kids dads were always so ornery. and dad never hollered

at us... when we did something wrong he would look at us and we would knew

we did something wrong and that was worse than anything, just that look

that he kept up.

END TAPE 01:22:27

LORNA#1/45

START TAPE @ 01/45/08

45/46 ...music is like an alive thing and when I hear him play it's like

he's not dead...so it's kind of an alive thing... I was asked one time if

I hated these people that killed him, if I would want them dead . I told

them no, I don't for one, I don't hate them. They've made a horrible mistake

that they'll live with everyday of their life and sometime, somewhere down

the line they will realize this. I don't think that hhowever the attitude

was ,,,I do want them to live with this everyday of their life. we have

to, I would want them to, I wouldn't want to be them for anything. If anything

I pity them , what they have done, it's a horrible thing , Dad would have

never hurt anybody. It just wasn't in him... the one thing I kept thinking

of while he was a fugitive. is, what he was going thru, I knew the personal

agony he was going through, knowing those two men were dead. Knowing him,

like I know him, that was an endless agony that he had been put in a position

to do that ...one time I had talked to him... he was highly decorated in

WWII and I couldn't comprehend him killing anybody, I knew that had to be

a hard thing for him to do...

48/02 ...he told me, when it comes to a matter of self survival he said

in order to save your own life you can take someone elses life to protect

your own or somebody elses life, you can do it. But, he was not, I know

it had to have been very hard for him to live with. those few months that

he was alive after that happened.

LORNA#1/45

48/53 ...I was twelve years old, mainly just started with the income

tax thing... then he did join different groups and I asked him about that

one time.

(CUT W/CLARENCE SAYING GK JOINED JOHN BIRCH)

He would get in them and find out what they were all about and then

he would always get back out, he was disappointed in them, they were like

politicians, they present one thing and then he'd find out they're not what

they appear to be either. I said why do you keep doing this? Why do you

keep joining these different groups. And he said, because you can't find

out anything standing on the outside looking in. He said you have to get

invovled. He said , you have to check these things out and nobody's going

to tell you anything unless you're part of it. And

49/57 ...actually, when all this happened he had not been a part of anything

for years . He had joined different things... and at the end when I heard

he was a big posse comitatus leader and all this, he was leader of that

thing or anything... had not been for ten years, even affilaited for years.

51/40 I was about twelve and she was just born......it started with

the income tax and it mainly stayed that way for probably five or six years...then

he got to digging further and it got into other things and he went to prison

for tax evasion..

52/20 ...I took it at that time like he had fought this thing, he lost,

he's going to pay for it, and this will be over. this will be the end of

it. and he'll realize that you cannot buck the govt. that's how I took it,

like it's finally over...and it really was. and I 'll believe to this day

that they picked him up for the reasons that they said, ...the day that

they went out there to Medina. They did not go thru all that for a probation

warrant that had been filed away...that is as childish of an answer as I've

ever heard. I'll never believe that...for one thing from what I had check

it out, from what I understand Robert Chesire from Bismarck contacted Marshall

Muir. Marshal Muir is the head marshal, he should have contacted Robert

Chesire. ...the warrant was in Fargo,

LORN3

53/45 ...they guy, I don't remember his name, the head over Marshal dept.

in Wash. DC testified that they told them to put it away, that dad was not

a threat to anyone. They had exhausted more manpower and money on this

thing than it was worth and to file it away. that he was no threat. And

it had been filed away. (INTERCUT W/ JACK SWAN'S RESPONSE TO "WHY

WAS IT RE-ISSUED?")

Marshal Muir did not dig it out. Rob. Chesire called him. and that's

when it got dug out ...

LORN3

54/34 ...the copy of the warrant for his probation was sent on Feb. 14,

the day after it happened... it is ridiculous, it bothers me that they would

think that people would be so naieve as to believe such a thing...that was

not the reason, now the two men are dead. and I don't know that we'll ever

know, what the real reason was. It was instigated from Rob. Chesire to Muir.

It should have been the other way around.

55/49 ...what I actually think...I can't prove any of this , the first

thing that puzzled me after this...my dad walked all around Carrington...he

drove out to the farm everyday, which is aprx. 25 miles and back in 25 miles

by himself...

LORN3

it puzzled me, why didn't they get him when he was alone ??? then I figured

it out, they didn't want to get him while he was alone. see they knew if

they went to arrest my dad , Scott and Yori would put up a resistance and

then they could get them all.

(TIME CODE CHANGES FROM 01:56:37 to

o3:28:23)

LORN3

03:28/32 ...the day that they presented the evidence that Muir had shot

the first shot and testified the gun that it came from I'll never forget

the look on the muir family I felt so bad for em. they dind't want to beleive

this. but yet it was solid evidence that it had to be his and the pistol

grips were found with his bullet in it...that his shot had to be what triggered

this whole thing that day,,,that maybe if he hadn't shot, but the look from

their faces, pain, disbelief, rejection LORN3

...they didn't want to believe that he could have started this, that

maybe the course of events could have been changed had that first shot not

been fired. ...thru out this thing ...but, I couldn't help but feel sorry

for them because I knew that this was something that they didn't want to

believe, especially Mrs. Muir ...that she didn't want to believe that maybe

the course of history could have been changed if that shot had not been

fired.

03:30/21

END TAPE

LORNA#2/22

START TAPE @ #02:22:34

22/33 ...if there could be just one honest person out there that would

come clean with what happened, this could be the domino effect, and then

we could finally get to the truth of this...I keep hoping as they get older

they've had time to think about this...they don't have so much to fear .

I know why they're going this...I basically don't want to think people

are dishonest , and I think that a lot of these people haven't come clean

is out of fear. ...if just one would come clean, the rest would have to.

23/35 ...I don't really know if we'll ever get to the truth of Medina...I

think the main characters are dead. I don't think we'll ever get to that

truth, we might get some light shed on it.

24/33

I sat thru those trials and I can't say who killed him. but from sitting

thru those trials and listening to those men I really feel like I know who

killed him. But I can't say who it was because I can't prove it. From the

testimony of who did what and when and how they were trying to cover this

up. I really feel like I know who did kill him.

25/13

I feel like the reason they killed Sheriff Matthews was one of two things.

Either, I believe it was because he wasn't going to go along with it. But,

it could have been a bunch of trigger happy people that when he came around

that corner, shot him...I've got pictures of his blood along the corner

of the garage, he was shot around the corner of the garage and I've got

the pictures of it. I've got the pictures to prove it was burnt and then

fired upon. ...the heat from the inside of the house, then the pictures

...line goes here and then the holes are there ...

26/35

...I've got the pictures to prove it. I've got the pictures of Sheriff

Matthews blood on the garage wall. I've got the autopsy report that shows

he was shot so many times. It could have ben one or two things , he either

wouldn't go along with them , so when he came out there was orders to kill

him. Or, someone panicked and when they seen a body come around shot him.

27/11 No I know he didn't, I've got pictures of his blood splattered...I'm

sure it's his blood. I don't know of anybody else that got shot out there

...enough to have splattered, it splattered, it got splattered. ...(CUT

W/PROF GRAN AT GARAGE CORNER)

27/35 ...Jim Hall, ...that's who I think shot him.

27/57 ...Also the reason I know, I feel like Jim Hall shot him. another

reason I think this is, I had an FBI man come talk to me, when this first

happened. He told me that they had had orders that one FBI man and one US

Marshal have to work together on thise case...he told me that the FBI did

not want dad dead. He said, we don't want a martyr on our hands ... he

said this is bad enough , we don't want a hero here. ...but, he said, I

can't say the same thing for the marshals service. He said one of their

own men got killed. They're looking at it a little different. (CUT W/GRAF)

...AND I feel like Jim Hall just barged right in there and killed him before

Mr. Blasingame had a chance to, I don't think they let him in on it. That

they were going to go in there and kill him. I don't think that Jim Hall

let anybody in on it. , because I think it was within the marshal's service

that they were going to have revenge. and if any of em was around when

this come down to get him . And I felt like they did ...I don't think that

Jim Blasingame, he probably went out there with the idea that he would kill

him but, I don't think that he just thought ... I'm going to shoot him in

the back or I'm going to shoot him in the back of the head. But, I don't

think that the Marshals service thought the same way. I think that they

wanted him dead no matter what. They had to shoot him in the back.

30/35 I don't feel like it happened that way, I think they just went

in there. They didn't plan it out real well. ... I think prrobably would

have liked to have been a big hero and captured him... Big John Wayne here.

From what I understood and I don't know, he's dead ...I'll never know.

I think Jim Blasingame went out there with the idea that he was in charge

and that things were going to go his way. And I think that Jim Hall wanted

to make sure he was dead. Didn't get away again. and I mean the autopsy

report has a hotdog in Dad's esophegus. Well, he was a good shot, but he

never ate and shot at the same time. I know he wasn't sitting there eating

a hotdog and shooting at the same time.

...his hotdog was stuck in his esophogus...he was shot in the back of

the head. They just walked up to him and put the gun to the back of his

head and shot him. He never knew what hit him.

I've got dad's autopsy report and part of Matthews and I also have picture

of the body.

33/45 ...He didn't say anthing about he didn't have any feet either.

We didn't know that until the NY Times reporter was down there in August

and the dog brought up my dad's feet. he didn't bother to mention that

either.

34/06 I wouldn't want to, but what leads me to believe that they did,

was the only thing that was missing from the house was that butcher knife.

...

Everything else was there and the wades went thru the house with that

grate...

34/45 I can show you the picture and I do believe that they chopped

his hands and feet off and knocked his teeth out because I requested that

when they send the body back and I wanted the teeth and I wanted them separate

so I wouldn't have to look at his body ...but I wanted to look at those

teeth, cause I knew I'd know dad's teeth...and anyway, when they brought

the teeth back , those were not his teeth, there were more teeth then he

had. those were big teeth, his were small teeth.

37/10 ..they didn't know if they wanted it to be him,,, if it was him,

it'd be on the news what they done. ...on the other hand if it's somebody

elese, they really messed up. if they killed the right person... I don't

think they wanted that body identified.

37/53 ...I think it was a case of total panic out there, once they lost

control, once dad was shot , Blasingame knew he wasn't in control anymore

and I think things got totally out of hand. and I think there was poeple

out there panicking, this one didn't know what that one was doing. I think

it was total chaos. I think Jim Blasingame didn't run a very tight ship...

I know they had no intentions of ever trying to call dad out .... he didn't

even carry out a bullhorn, with a hostage type thing the first thing they

do is try to call em out. He...that didn't even cross his mind to try to

call him out. ...

39/39 ...the one thing that has always puzzled me wwas on CNN , was the

night that this happened, I saw this on TV , they said how ironical it was

that GK and Sheriff Matthews would take this final ride together. And they

had two bodies in the back of this ambulance. ...Now I'm told that Sheriff

Matthews was taken to the hospital and died at the hospital...I'll never

forget that, there were two body bags...I said that must be dad over there.

42/11 ...but they did, they said GK and Gene Matthews will take theire

final ride together...so what happened? How will we ever know?

END TAPE @ 02:44:00

LORNA#2/44

START TAPE @ 02:44:33

And I know there's someone that knows, why...the whole thing. ...

LORNA#2/44

45/20 ... the worse thing he ever said about anybody, was a dumb fool...

when he lost his (tax) trial down in Midland, ...I asked him, doesn't that

make you mad? He said, ohh, no, the dumbfool just thinks he's doing his

job.

46/59 He told em he would never come after them, but if they ever came

after him, then they better be prepared,,, he just wanted to be left alone

...yeah, he wasn't infringing on anyone.

47/28

this whole thing is nothing from beginning to end, it's not what it appears

to be ...it's alie and a coverup and that's all it is and they had boys

going out to do a man's job. I just feel like everthing they did they messed

up and they wouldn't admit and so they had to coverup ...

48/40

I didn't want to stif it up again, it's always at the surface and once

it comes up and sometimes as a family, we just want to let it rest in peace(BAD

,EDOA CPVERAGE)...it always comes out worse, he's made out to be a fool...just

let him rest in peace. it's not going to get Yori out of prison...

the only hope is if it's covered right, maybe it won't happen to somebody

else... if it's honest coverage, which we haven't had before...

You get defeated, you get knocked down so many times, why get up again...you

can't find out the truth...why us.? Just a little bitty farmer...why did

this happen, how did it happen.. it's somethint that 's not supposed to

happen in this country... and after everything else that they did they can't

even tell us the truth ...why was killing him not enough, we've got a right

to know that

52/36

LANE ...I'll lock my self in the funny farm, if within three years, a

terrible sick joke is going to be played on us by the rich evil,,, there

is something beyond...ou can make yourself a real documentary...there's

no connection until you look into it...you can see it, these people thrive

on secrecy, they're getting blatant...55/24

03/00/15 GK'S CHARCOALED BODY PHOTO

02/56

these are the photos...they prove that (PICTURES OF PAINT AND BULLET

HOLES. )

03/04/03 that proves that the house was burned and then they had their

shootout, to make it look like there had been a shootout out there. when

in fact they just burned and then open fired.

Blood spots on photos of garage. ...

END TAPE @ 03:04:00

LORNA#3/05

START TAPE @ 03:05:51

This picture right here, what's unique is look at the blisters here on

the side , but not on the front of the oven door. ...so what I believe is

if the kerosene had just been poured in the house the damage would have

been even... I bel

06/32 ...what's unique here about this picture is if you look the refrigerator

and the side of the stove is blistered, but the front door of the stove

isn't blistered... I beleive that his body to recieve the damage that it

did had to have been soaked, that was why the heat was more concentrated

the length of his body...

08/10 AUTOPSY PICTURE OF GK ...

13/46 ...well, I don't know that it had anything to do with it, per say.

I know that Linda was pretty close to daddy. They didn't always see eye

to eye...it was just real bad times ...this happened with daddy, then her

second husband left her, the girls were grown up ...I think she came to

a place in her life where she thought nobody needed her... I think she thought

about it for years...she had a hard time dealing with what had happened.

...I don't know... I think maybe it was more of a catylist to her hopeless

despair. then maybe we'd like to admit, I don't know

16/00 LORNA READING THE RADIO POLICE TRANSCRIPT FROM ROADBLOCK...

LORNA#3/05 (LORN7)

22/13 ...this is what's upset me from the beginning on that book. It

is as biased one way as some of the stuff that was written on dad's side...

it's like two saints got together and how did such a terrible thing happen?

This side is beyond causing any problems and making any mistakes and so

is the other side. So how did such horrible mistakes happen if both sides

were above doing anything wrong. ...How did such a catastrophe happen?

23/14 there was a young man who sat in the back row, he was always looking

over at the Muirs making motions to them. then there was an older lady

who slept thru most of the trial ...I was so upset, I thought here their

lives are in the balance and she's sleeping. ...didn't the judge see this

...didn't the attny's see this, why didn't somebody do something about this...

I don't know how she sleeps at night...

24/47 yea, that's a personal responsibility of each juror.

25/55 I just couldn't understand how thru this thing that they could

actually get those boys for murder, when in fact they had a confession and

dad couldn't confess to it in such minute details unless he done it. ...see

the way he come around, when he shot em, how he shot em... he couldn't have

confessed to this in such detail if he hadn't done it ...those boys did

not murder anybody ...

26/51 ...they should be allowed when you have a confession to a murder,

that should be allowed in there. because they were saying they didn't do

it. Somebody else was saying they did do it. that dad was saying he did

do it. the boys were saying that they didn't do it. ...to me that letter

would have been evidence. ...

END LORNA ADKINS INTERVIEW

CREDITS

with interviews of...

Joan Kahl
Yorie Kahl
Lynn Crooks
Toots Mathis
Dennis Fisher
John Noah
Irv Nodland
Bill Kennelly
Prof. Ed Gran
Jack McLamb
Delores Everts
Scarlet Skiftu
Herman Widicker
August Pankow
Victor Seil
Marlys Klimek
Ron Perleberg
Len Martin
Brad Kapp
Robert Holiday
Tom Lee
Ed Fitzpatrick
Gene Nail
Buford Terrell
Marlene Gaysek
Bob Ralston
Darrel Graf
Steve Schnabel
Jack Swan
Loreen Dyck
Lorna/Loreen
Mark Stagg
Sheriff Ray Weatherby
Jack Miller

cinematography

Tracy Adams
Allison Hoffman
Jeffrey F. Jackson

production design

Jim Haddon
Peter Lloyd

film editing

Tracy Adams
Martyn Hone
Jeffrey F. Jackson

original music by

Tracy Adams

sound department

Tracy Adams
Jeffrey F. Jackson

stunts

Rex Reddick

produced by

Jeffrey F. Jackson
Angela Kaye

writing by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

directed by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

CHRONOLOGY

A timeline of the life of Gordon Kahl, from early childhood interests, to his marriage to Joan Kahl, his decorated military experience, his outspoken tax protest, the Medina shootout, and his unusual death in Arkansas in 1983.

REVIEWS

VARIETY / Indie documaker Jeffrey F. Jackson sticks it to the IRS and the Feds in "Death & Taxes," a hard-hitting reinvestigation of the 1983 Gordon Kahl case, about which questions still linger. Jackson's unfazed, investigative reporting-style approach and inventive handling of familiar material make this a controversial item for fests and progressive webs. Non-U.S. viewers will also get a charge out of its conspiracy theme. read more

CHRONICLES MAGAZINE / Gordon Kahl was a simple farmer who became famous for not filing income tax returns. Imprisoned and hounded by IRS agents who never did prove he owed any amount of money, Kahl and his son were involved in a shootout with police. The son is still serving a prison sentence, but the father was surrounded and shot in Arkansas by police officers who mutilated and burned his body. read more

GUNS & AMMO / A new video documentary, Death & Taxes, details a case of government murderously out of control that was briefly mentioned in the October 1994 Guns & Ammo article "The Ugly Truth About Gun Control." Death & Taxes is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer and decorated World War II veteran, and his apparent death at the hands of federal agents. read more