INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPTS

Robert Holiday

MEDINA LOCATION

15/16/00

17/11 ...well the first contact I had with GK was thru John Noah, who

was our chief ...this would have been the later winter , early spring of

1980...and he transferred him over to me...because it was in my area...so

that was the first contact I had with GK...

18/04 ...the first meeting I had with him, I first recieved the file

from John Noah...didn't really know what to expect, except that John Noah

had described him as being somewhat eccentric in terms of some extrememe

religious beliefs, and a tax protestor...I arranged a home visit...went

out to his farm house and went in to see him, if I remember correctly there

were some family members and other friends there, but, really nothing eventfull...I

found him to be friendly, he was more than willing to talk, to more or less,

mostly interested in trying to explain his beliefs, where he was coming

from and quickly realized that I had no knowledge of his beliefs or where

he was coming from, so he spent considerable time trying to explain his

cause and the types of things that he was interested in...he was not a threatening

individual, physically at all, matter of fact he was quite a small man...a

grandfatherly type of fellow, sitting in a rocking chairand we just sat

and had a nice conversation, coffee and cookies , and the whole thing like

that...19/43...

19/48 ...the first time I met with him, to be honest, I did not take

it very seriously or pay a whole lot of attention to what he was saying...we

deal with a whole lot of cases and a lot of different situations and hear

from a lot of different people...but I found it womewhat interesting to

just sit and talk with him...20/16 ... however he made it quite clear when

I would press him about the reason I was there as his probation officer

, that how he was going to be responding to the conditions of his probation

made it quite clear that he was not going to be filing his taxes...but this

was before the April 15, 1980 deadlines so we would just talk about those

type of things...20/41

20/51 ...I just explained to him that if he did not that I had noalternation

to notify the court of his failure to comply with the conditions of his

probation and it would likily result in a hearing or something along those

lines...21/09

21/14 ,...I was out to his home twice, to visit personally with him...the

first time I was out was in March of 1980 and the second time I went out

was in April of 1980, immediately after April 15th I just talked to him

again and find out what his intentions were and that type of thing...21/40

21/44 ...he very vehemently and directly said that he was intending to

file and was not going to comply with the conditions of his probation ...21/55

22/08 ...no he did not, there was no indication of violence, there was

no, anything along those lines...it I realized that, the things he were

saying were extreme, especially the second time ...I think by that time

we realized , and had got a little bit more information from the IRS that

, prior to that time we had never heard of posse comitatus, and were not

aware of the beliefs, and the strong beliefs held by GK...

22/50 ...what I felt he was just really trying to get across to me, in

a way, was trying to convert me to his cause...by the method he would go

about explaing where he wa coming from and how he was going to go,...that's

the feeling that I had...a little prosylitizing was going on...umm, he viewed

me as obvioulsy someone who was very ignorant and stupid, to be working

for the fed. govt. because of course his beliefs were very strong that the

govt. was serving satan and communism and all these types of things...so,

he didn't seem particularly afraid of me in a personal way, however he knew

what I represented in terms of probation and US district courts...23/47

23/59...he felt that it was an illegal convicition, he felt that the

laws were illegal, and he felt that his conviction was illegal and mostly

felt that he was following his concious and his particular religiouis beliefs

and could not bring himself to comply with the laws and conditions set by

the court...24/28

24/46 ...umm, I do not remember any specific, but it was more a feeling,

there's a possible potential for violence associated with these types of

people and these types of groups and there was some information filtering

in from other states that similar types of groups had expressed some violence

, if I remember correctly there was some threats made against federal judges

down in texas and there were connections being made through the country

that people were starting to sound the alarm, show some concern as far as

the tax protest groups...25/35...(CUT WITH BUFORD SAYING IRS WAS EDUCATING

JUDGES...W/CROOKS SAYING, "WE HAVEN'T HEARD TOO MUCH FROM THE TAX PROTESTORS

AFTER THIS...")

26/39... well I realized, especially the second time after I went out,

after april 15 . it was my job to say, Gordon, you have not complied. and

he said yes. and um, I felt some uneasiness at that time because of the

information coming in at that time from other districts. and also because

of some of the rhetoric expressed by GK. and I think I began to realize

the depth of his feelings and how this had really become a strong issue

for him.. so I had some concern the last time I was out there...27/29...

27/47... not that direct, what I asked him to do was to provide us with

a letter, an explanation of what are you intending to do. And the letter

is in the file and he spoke at great length, explaining his belief and toward

the end, said, I'm willing to be a martyr for my cause and I'm not going

to give in and I'm not going to give up...basically whatever happens is

going to happen, and I'm willing to be a martyr. I recieved other information

after the violation reports were filed. He apparently told some law enforcement

people that he was not going to go peacefully and he was indicating that

he was going to resist any attempt to arrest him. But he made no direct

comments to me, other than what was in the letter he wrote to me...

END TAPE

HOLIDAY/BROOM INTERVIEW:

TAPE #16

00/46 ...but he, when he was talking to me he got into that a little

bit...the masons , but, he was looking for the rings and stuff...if he did

ask, I'm not, and it meant nothing to me at the time...again you don't realize...

01/59... no, here's one of his monthly reports that he sent in...he listed

his employer as Jesus Christ, and he claimed to be a bishop in the gospel

doctrine church of Jesus Christ and then he talked to me and then here was

his little message to me (INSERT A TCU OF THE LETTER STATING THE FOLLOWING)

...have you given any thought to become a christian so you can serve christ

rather than Satan, that was the extent of his ...02/23...not the extent,

but the cruxt of his dealings with me, what's a nice young man like you

serving satan for? , don't you see the light, that was the kind of thing

that was going on...02/38...

02/49 ...(DAN BROOM) ...again, in keeping with his thoughts anybody working

for the govt. was working for Satan and was also inserting communism because

of the second plank of the communist manifesto, . In that convoluted way

taht he worked things out, well we really were servants of satan...and I

think that's what made it easier...it's sort of the same thing that we do

when we have a war, (PANS TO HIS FACE) ...we use propaganda, in the way

that I think that he's used it, to further and rationalize our goals...and

to somehow make sub-human the people that we feel are misguided or misdirected...I

think thgat mind set that you see here is what came to fruition on Feb.

13, 1983 at Medina....

3/50 ... this was later on after, more in response to GK's response to

law enforcement saying, I ain't going. ...if you come to get me, you better

be ready ,,,this type of veiled threats and not so veiled threats, so at

this time I was not real comfortable with maintaining it on a probation/supervision

situation...4/22...

4/41 ...umm, Kahl and his followeres like to say he was put into prison,

he was sent to Springfireld Missouri for medical examination, that was a

medical center and the he was confined at the Leavenworth , but that was

a camp, so he was never in a penitentiary... that was one of his, one of

those emotional kinds of things that he like to play to, that because I

was a tax protestor I was placed in a penitentiry , well, he was never placed

in a penitentiary...he was in a camp and in a medical center ...the medical

center was to have him evaluated...5/23...to see if there was some mental

health issues here, because his views were so radical...and the thinking

was so convoluted...05/34...

06/00...well, what happened was, I submitted the probation violation

report ...and notified the court that Mr. Kahl was not complient with conditions

of his probation and that generated first of all a summons , and they initiated

a probation violation hearing, ...6/26...but then, later on withdrew that,

they basically dropped the charges. (CUT W/PEOPLE SAYING THERE NEVER WAS

A VALID WARRANT) and then indicated they kind of wanted to pick up the

supervision again, but by that time, I had had an opportunity to read the

letter and recognize the veiled threats combined with the problems associated

law enforcement, marshals service that had attempted to serve a summons

on him and he had responded very negatively. (CUT W/JOHN NOAH COMMENTING

ON HIS FEAR) And I was not at all comfortable at that to renew normal probation

supervision, without some clarification from the court and the texas probation

people, ...what do you want from me as far as supervision, what are the

expectations here,...so I was not comfortable until we could get some clarification,

as to what was actually going on...We were here in ND . The case was down

in Texas. So it was just a convoluted time there for a while...I was never

able to initiate a regular superviosion plan of action with him again...7/48...

7/58 ...Most of , after the probation revocation report and petition

was sent to Texas. I closed my interest and sent the file down to Texas...however

they asked that I maintain some courtesy supervision. But, most of the

correspondence was going on beteween tx and Gk directly ...and I was just

kind of on the sidelines, watching and waiting for, to see how this thing

was going to develop and how it was going to end up... that's how I was

from that point on...8/37...

9/13... II knew them both...we worked with them both personallly, Bob

knew Chesire better caus3e in Bismark, I knew Muir because of in Fargo...we

both knew them, I knew Ken pretty well professionally...

9/47 ...that's basically that's true, monitoring or waiting for some

decision to be made or something to happen...so, no I really had no direct

involvement after that, other than with the deputy marshals and their atempts

to...when the warrant came out I worked with them a fair amount because

I had some real concerns. And I told the marshals that, I had some real

concerns. I warned them the best I could to be very careful with this situation,

because I felt it could be very explosive. So, aside from that contact

with the marshals, I had no other contact with GK...10/32

10/48 ,,,I knew it from reviewing the file, and he basically told me

his life story...his belief that he was a real patriotic christian american

and that was part of his credentials, to point out his military service

and that sort of thing....11/11

11/19... I was in my home watching the winds of war on TV.... a little

blurb came across my TV that there had been a shooting near Medina, two

marshals had been shot and a parole violator from texas was a suspect...I

was shocked because of the marshals, but at that point I didn't make a correlation

that it was GK...as a suspect in that becaause there was diffence between

probation and parole, he was not on parole, he was on probation...until

the phone started to ring and a court person had called...and then we realized

what the situation was...12/09...

12/23 ...of course I was very shocked by the bloodshed, the extreme violence,

people killed, shot, that was very shocking to ...however I wasn't particularly

shocked that the circumstance like this happened, because of rhetoric and

what I knew...so I did not particularly shock me that there had been a confrontation...I

was really shocked and horrified to find out the gruesomeness of the killings...13/08...

13/35 ...no, nothing direct I know there is a fair amount of literature

out concerning this thing, putting govt. folks in a bad light but I'm not

concerned...

14/06 (BITTER HARVEST)...I thought it was exellenct, that it gave a very

good portrayal of how tis type of person can happen...I thought it was quite

accurate...

14/38 ...I just wasn't aware of his involvment, in terms of being in

a leadersh role...we had no info. about his involvement...to be truthful

I learned a great deal from that book about his leadership and involvement.

but I cna't provide anyting other than that...

15/17 ...DAN= I thought it was a first rate sociological treatise of

the dynamics of how a GK can become such a notorious figure certainly in

ND...they remembger it in much the same way as they remember the assination

of JFK...it's seared in all of our minds because it's so out of the norm

for ND, such heineous violence against law enforement...I thought Mr. Corcoran

did a good job of tracing GK's life , the events in his life and how they

shaped his thinking and attitude and culminated in the tragedy in Medina...I

thought he did an excellent job...16/33... I saw a fair amount of the literature

that was put out by the followeres of GK subsequent to the arrest of the

co-defendants...and it bothered me that by virtue of the fed and local rules,

that the govt. couldn't give it's side of what had gone on...for a while

it was a romanticized GK against the govt., and I think that what's always

bothered me about that is that we are the govt. , we the people, the probation

officers and fed. officers work for the people, the govt. is the people

, so if the people are unhappy about it there's lots they can do about it

without resorting to violence...I never knew GK...but I knew the co-defendants

and I knew...17/20 their feelings of GK...My view of him is that he's articulate

with a very, very plausible explanation for what he's doing and why he's

doing it, which has a certainly amount of appeal for those who are socially

maladjusted or politaclly malcontents...and I think that's why he could

take some poeople like Broer or Faul or his absolute clone was his son Yorie...and

mold those people...17/51... DAN CONT...

and influence them in a way as well as others and he got and had an audience

he might not otherwise have had, because times were real tough in agriculture

at the time, there were a lot of foreclosures under way and so his idea,

heh, it's not you, you're not a poor agri-busniessman, it's the govt. ,

it the manipulation of the markets, it's big business, it's communism...

it's the govt. willingly or unwillingly serving the aims of communism, ...and

he had , he could engender a following that I don't think would have been

there, if things hadn't been so tough at that particular time, for farming,

and this is an agrigarian state...18/28...

DAN CONT...

19/29... perhpas to the extent that with a better sense of circustances

, maybe a better time and place could have been chosen...by any standard

of serving a warrant, they were performing their duties, they were identified

as law enforcement officers (CUT W/THEY WERE ORDERED TO TAKE THEIR BADGES

OFF) ...THEY STATED WHAT THEY WERE THERE TO DO AND THEY HAD AN APX. 9 OR

10 MINUTE STANDOFF ...I think that beside Kahl, those other people were

there, and you gotta recall that prior to that incident, they had already

gone thru the subtrvuge of changing their clothes and cars, so those were

willing accomplices and they were armed...20/14... and unfortunately they

had more arms than law enforcemtn did...it could have been avoided , I think

, that's almost an irrelevant question becasue they were there exercising

their duties responsibliy, it could have had alot less tragic outcome ...but

whether you're looking back in retrospect , but as bob said he concerns

were starting to grow, and the fact that he talked with the marshals service

and told them to be caregul and the marshal's service had already been out

there once...20/49... and met with him and they kind of knew that this man

was dangerous, I don't tink that by any stretch of the imagination did they

think that they would meet with this kind of fire power and dispersed firepower

that they met with...this tells me that these people were ready, they knew

it was going to happen and it was just a matter of when, they knew the

warrant was out ther and they were prepared...END DAN...SPEECH

21/11... I'd like to build off of what dan said earlier, you've got to

realize you're dealing with ruaral ND... where law enforcement rarely have

to use their weapons, you're not used to that type of resistance, that type

of reaction in any way shape or form...granted I think, hindsight is twenty-twenty...they

thought they were doing the best they could at taht time with the info they

had under the circumstances, who would have thought...21/57,...that you

would have had a military standoff, people assuming positions, and just

a real tragic situation as Dan mentioned earlier, knowing the people made

it that much more difficult for us in working with them on a day to day

basis, being friends with them makes it more difficult for us...22/22 (ISSUE

OF FAIR TRIAL? AND FAIR SENTENCING?) ...

22/45 ...DAN= He's become larger in death than he was in life, he's

left a legacy , certainly in ND and possibly to militant groups that are

anti-govt. , anti-semetic, anti-whatever, yea, he's got a legacy and a life

there that he doens't deserve...23/11

23/30 DAN= ...John Noah was the chief probation officer at the time and

he retired and I replaced him,...23/45...my role at that time was to write

the presentence report when they were found guilty by a jury...Yori Kahl

would not consent to a presentence interview so I basically based it on

a presentence report on his father and from information Mrs. Kahl provided

me, his mother... so I got to know Scott FAul fairly well, Vernon Wagner

and David Broer, ...24/16 ...and I , the commentary I saw running thru all

their lives, the agraian background, the disaffection with the govt., the

feel that the govt. was intrusive that the govt. was too involved with the

average america's life...(CUT W/ MARLENE GAYSEK TALKING ABOUT HOW MONEY

HAS TO BE WITHHELD FROM THE AVERAGE GUYS PAYCHECK OR HE WON'T BE ABLE TO

PAY AT THE END OF THE YEAR) ....24/30 ...ah concerns about things like sex

education in school, this is mostly scott faul who I think was, while probably

more friendly, and closer to Yori still looked at Gordon with degree, if

not reverence, then certainly who spoke very elequotly for the types of

beliefs that he had...24/55...uhh, David Broer was sort of the ...intellect

of the group and the one who had a lot of lay training in the law, he was

more much more of a pacifisit in his religious beliefs and as it turned

out at that day in Medina , while he was armed, I don't believe he took

up any arms, but he was involved in some of the changing of cars and clothes

and that sort of thing. 25/22...

...vern wagner, I thought was there more for the excitement and the

pyrotechnics, you know they were talking about where to get some weapons

or where to get some smoke grenades from here, I don't think he was ever

a card=carrying memebers of the posse or as radicalized as some of the others...but

there was these common things, I think they thougth the govt. was intrusive,

real concerned in what was going on in schools, especially in sex education,

I think they were reaal concerned with farm foreclosures...and feeling somewhat,

they...26/03

...they had what I call a victim stance , there wasn't anything wrong

with them, it was the govt. at large, it was the fed govt. it was this great

satanic conspiracy that was driving them to the wall, and whatever they

did in response to this pressure was something brought on them, it wasn't

something they created, it was brought on them...26/26...

26/44 ...that's right , it basically, more often then not...oftentime

the judge doesn't know a lot about the social or biographical info. and

socio-economic, where they were born and raise, army service, where educated,

health, finances those things, the pre-sentence report sort of fleshes that

out and the probation officer is a part of that also give an assessment,

an evaluation and makes a sentencing recommendation/ I might add that my

recollecgtion that there was very little in that presentence report that

was challenged by the defense counsel...27/26...

27/47 ...(GOOD TIGHT EYEBALL SHOT) ...it was rather bland actually ,

it was based on interviews with family members and a presentence report

done earlier on his father in texas, so it certainly the same degree of

first hand information that it would normally have...all the other defendants

were very willing to be interviewed , and when appropriate their spouses...david

broer, his wife in my office, vern wag in his home, they, again in yori's

case, he just wasn't going to talke to me...his attny provided me with some

info...that was helful...28/37...

28/41... an absolute of his dad, just as militant, just as angry, just

as dangerous...28/47...(re:to Yori)

28/49 (GOOD EYES TWITCHING BACK AND FORTH WHILE LISTENING TO QUESTION,

TRY LAYING IN SOME OTHER VOICE FROM A PRECEDING SUBJECT WHILE WATCING THOSE

EYES...) ...the recommendaitons are confidential...I think that the courts

primary concern was to hand down sentences that were proportional to the

respective defendents involvmen5ts in the events of that day and to that

extent I think that they did...(CUT W/THE TWO JURORS TALKING ABOUT SENTENCING)...29/18...

29/28 ... I'm kind of rememberin g to Bob's earlier characterization

of GK, Scott was personalbe, fairly young man, for a young man, had a fairly

large family, I think 3 or 4 children...I believe his wife might have been

pregnant at the time...nice family, I remember interviewing his wife...again

to look at him and talk with him, he's not the sort of fellow that you'd

think to find in a criminal court charged with such serious offenses...easy

to talk with...I thought fairly truthful and forthcoming, even to the extent

, when I was getting into the areas of what motivated him that day ...

END TAPE #16:30:00

DAN BROOM / BOB HOLIDAY INTERVIEW:

START

TAPE # 16:30:30

DAN= ...so he thought that the authorities wer after him becasue of the

truancy charges... scott faul hadn't been sending his children to school,

he was educating them in the home, so he thought the authorities were after

him for some sor of truancy charges...and there had been some sort of incident

donw in Utah where a fellow, his children weren't in school, and he had

got into a conflict with the authorities over that , resulting in this person

being killed...the impression he gave me was that the same fate lay ahead

for him...but, he also conceded that he knew GK was wanted on a warrant

and he also knew they were under surveilance and he was aware of the switching

around went in the cars and the clothing, so he pretty much knew what was

going on, in my view it was a pretty specious explanation...31/29 something

else that really stood out in my mind, I asked him, why did you have that

kind of firepower? Why in the world would you have mini-14 s with clips

and taht, that seems a little excessive, he said, well, driving back and

forth between home and medina they'd shoot rabbilts and coyotes and that's

what they'd feed their dogs, 31/51 ...well, that's not a real common undertaking,

and to me, they were real rationalized explanations of what went on that

day and they just didn't reach the facts of the matter...32/04...

32/15 ... DAN= ...the earliest that they're eligible is ten years, I

think that given the background on the case, what went on, I don't look

for either one of them to be paroled for at least thirty years...interestingly

enough , the parole commission is going out of existence in 1992 and before

they go out of existence for all inmates currently confined they're going

to have to establish presumtive release dates... so about at the latest

of 1992 I will suspect that Yori K and Scott F. will have some idea of what

kind of release dates they're looking at...32/52...

32/58 ...the comprehensive crime cotrol act of 1984...they are required

that within five years that they set presumptive release dates...

34/06 ...well I think they were both involved, ...as I recall it was

generally thought that Yori shot first...and the trailer owners identified

Scott as being right by their trailer... I believe that forensics identified

the bullets from their rifles...Yori was believed to have shot first, course

he went down fairly quickly in that action, I believe that Muir got off

a pitol shot that got Yori in the pistol butt and then I think it was Brad

Kapp that got the shotgun blast off that got him in the stomach and put

him out of the action...Scott was shooting... I think he was identified

as shooting by other people there...I think they were both , from Yori being

the precipatator with Scott joining in once it happened,...

35/31... the people there that were right on the scene or those that

were right in the town that heard it, that were viet nam veterans, said

it sounded just like a fire fight in viet nam...a lot of shooting, quickly

and then it was over...

35/42... I think one of the most chilling things that came out of all

of this, was , the couple that was in the trailer home , the description

of the summarily execution of Bob Chesire by Gordon....36/00...

37/24 ...It doesn't effect us in the same way...doesn't have a titilating

value,,, we see the bizarre routinely...I don't think I'll ever be devoid

of feeling of what went on in Medina...that I cannot sense the tragedy across

the board...for all the families involved, not just the federal officers...the

state officers, but for the other families involved....to some extent to

use a biblical quote, the sins of the fathers are going to be visited on

the sons. and I'm talking of scott faul's children, be without a father,

bob chesire's children will be without a father...Ken Muir's grandchildren

and children...just a trememdous tragedy...38/32...

38/43 ... I think just to say that he was an empty intellectual , he

fancied himself as some sort of a lay lawyer type guy, the kind of guy who

would read for a law degree and then be allowed to practise, ...I sensed

that he was more of a pseudo-intellect...I don't thiknn there was any depth

to his intellect...but kind of place where you use a few llegal terms and

you get some defference paid...he could talk the talk...I dohnt' think there

any intellectual depth to Broer, he was a craftsman by trade...and I like

to think ...he may have, he carried a collapsible stock shotgun and so he

banished the armerment like the others did, and I think he articulated the

rhetoric, but when the moment came he didn't do anythinkg...and to that

extent I don't think his committment was really as great as the others invovled

that day...39/56... and thank god they weren't cause I'm not sure we wouldn't

have had a worse blood bath than we did...he was a family man, I think it

was a family that was close,...his wife was very close during this time...he

may be off parole at this time...I didn't see him as being as big of a player

or as strongly held in his beliefs... certainly to the point of taking it

to violence that day as the others...40/33...

41/04 ...again I did the presentence,...Vernon wagner was what I called

a groupie...he might have been prosylitized...he didn't have the furvor...proabably

fascinated by some sort of little militant cell operating out there in the

middle of the state, carrying weapons around..I don't see him as being any

sort of a strong follower...and I think he pretty much boke off from that...he

voluntarily surrendered...43/06...

42/49... what you're asking is two quesitons, we in ND are not used to

this kind of violence...it's just so totally alien for us here, and to the

extent maybe that was the achilles heels that day for the marshals, yes,

Ken Muir was no novice at law enforcement...he 'd done a lot of work, he

was a skilled pistol shooter...I think if anything our complancyi got us

in trouble that day...to me it doesn't matter...a lot of people say, gee

it was just a misdemeanor, was it worth that? ...44/05 ...well, if you're

going to have laws and you'r going to enforce them then and you're going

to have nay integrety in the system then you've got to enforce them...I

don't see any difference.. I think the publice has this idea, the mystic

of the fed marshal, and it's a sort of romanticists things...a law enforcement

officer doing his duty is a man that's worthy of the community respoect...44/56...

45/20 ...(BOB, WHO'S THE ACTOR TO PLAY YOU?) .... that's a really difficult

question...James ARness....I've always been a gunsmoke fan,,, a similar

size...

46/41 ... there was a fair amount of it going thru at the time, we had

other pople that were invovled in the tax protest movement, some we believed

had some posse comitatus affiliation or at least identifying with them...there

was a time when some things were going on over in Wisconsin...

47/10 ...I think it was almost as if it was, one of those things where

the events....Gokrdon was building towards taht day, it took a real devastiated

farm economby, some real disaffected people, even the average person today

has some concerns, we just went thru this big budget hassle and are we going

to raise taxes or not? and everybody politically distances themselve...I

think there's a lot of anitipayhty in america at large over taxation and

probably a large audience that would say heh, I'd like to keep more of my

earning for myself, but they wouldn't take up arm.s...against their govt.

to protest it in that manner...I think it was the extraodinary lengths that

Gjordon went to the fact that he was anble to engender a following not necessary

because of his views, but because when pepole are unhappy and they feel

like they're being victimized, it is easier, to internalize belief system.s

or they reationlize... I'ma god fearing military man ...twice decorated,

it's not me, it's what you guys are going to me and what bob represented

in a fed. official...48/37...

48/41... no, iin fact I'm a christian, ...I am too...BOB= building off

what dan said, I think it was the circumstances, back in the early eighties,

the farm crisis was so great, as Corcoran's book bitter Harvest, exactly

what was going on, the atmosphere was so great for building hatred against

the govt., the anger and hatred against the banks, against the govt....all

thes types of things...I , it was just an unfortuante set of cicumstances,

a great tragedy for those on both sides... anywayere in the country, a...rural

area..devoid of this type of thing happening...affected so many lives...49/59...

52/07 ...I don't know what else in the file you might be interesteed

in, the rest was just court records...

*****

53/23... one thing we always kind of had a quiestion about, as far as

donw in texas, what motivated them to drop the charge the first time , they

withdrew the charge the first time??? And it kind of went back, in my opinon,

it created a situation that could have embolden Gordon Kahl and I believe

that was pointed out in the book. ... Embolden him to bleive that nobody's

going to do anything to me...I can just do whatever I want...I'd be interested

in finding that out myself, just find out why they pulled back and dind't

pursue it.....

54/21 ...right, right, I don't know if it got to a warrant or a summons

to start with,,, but we weren't involved iwth it... there was a lengthy

period of time where is was back and forth...I think Jim comvered it in

his book...???

******

55/18...I never really knew that, I know the marshals were a little relunctant

becasue of the mideamnor status and the pltential for violence. ...as Dan

said one nation of laws , you can't pick which law to enforce and which

one not too...(CUT W/PANKOW GRIPPING ABOUT THE TRAFFIC TICKET BEING WAVED)

...

56/01...DAN OFF CAMERA TALKING ABOUT THE WARRANT... the chronology in

response to a letter that bob sent down that Gahl was not going to comply

and they at that time, He put a petition together asking for court action...

and that was court authorized...the court signed off on that, I don't remember

whether it was a summons or a warrant, but subsequently that was quashed,

that's the legal word for dismissed. And a letter went out from Swan to

Kahl saying it's been dismissed and we hope that you'll cooperate or whatever,

...after that happened, when he still didn't comply, and he wasn't , and

it probably was clear to them from the day they sent it that he wasn't.

Then there was a new petition alleging violation of probation executed

and a warrant was requested, and that's the one, essentially the second

one that the attempt was made to serve on february 13... (JJ "AND YOU

WERE WONDERING ABOUT THE SECOND ONE? OR THE FIRST ONE?)

57/13...the first one, and the length, the time frame involved there,

I think, I understand like what Dan has just said, is what happened, because

then it came back, that's how my name came in it, because my name was used

on the probation violation petition alleging that GK had not been submitting

his monthly reports...and I think what had happened is texas had attempted

to initaite some dialog . To try to get some communicaton or something going,

and it just wasn't working out, so they made a decison to do it again...but

as I mentioned earlier, I felt a little in the dark here in ND as to what

was going on down in texas...58/22 ...cause he was so obvious in violation

and he was that was his stand, he said I'm not going to do it! And it was

almost, okay, I've done my part now it's up to you to do your part...although

I don't, I belieive in my heart that he was not intending for it to end

up the way it did, I really do. In my heart Ibelieve that...I did not intend

for that for that type of violence to occur or ...58/54... (BOB IS EXPRESSING

REMORSE) DAN CHIMES IN OFF CAMERA...the probation officer has a statutory

duty to keep the court informed as to the conduct and behavior of a probationer

and to enforce conditions, in this case there was a special condition ,

saying that he would file a return...(WHICH REMINDS ME, NOBODY HAS MENTIONED

THE OTHER CONDITION OF GK'S PROBATION WHICH WAS NOT TO ASSOCIATE WITH ANY

GROUPS THAT ADVOCATE ...) ...59/11...

...so he was in obvious violation, Bob has a statutaory, ministerial

duty to enforce that condition. and thats, you can see GK knew from the

day the sentence was pronounced , in the one count he was sent off to the

camp, that it was going to escalate. That he was going to be held accountable,

that there would be consequences for his failure. Now maybe that put him

into a difficult , if not irreconciliable position because he says, I'm

going to be held accountable...and I'm not going to comply with the courts

conditions...so we were on an irreversible course...given that kind of thinking

that he had (FREEDOM OF SPEECH ISSUE)...59/56...AND THAT HE Was a North

Dakotian, that had been living down in Texas and had been adjudicated down

there and had decided to come back to ND is how we got involved to begin

with...the jurisdiction was never transferred up here...

17/00/18 GOOD TCU OF BOB'S FINGERS RUBBING...

17/01/35 ...GOOD SHOT OF BOB WATCHING ME LOOK AT PAPERS, WITH HANDS CLASPED...

ENDS @17/03/00apx

HOLLIDAY/BROOM INTERVIEW:

TAPE #17

02/11... Gordon's just been consistenct all the way thru...he's consistant...he's

said what he believes...have you talked to Yorie...?

3/47 ...I can never remember, if Yorie was there one of the times when

I was there, ...I think a daught was there...

4/10 ...I saw some material that said I was out there and I was scared

to death... 5/50...this diatribe was strange...

END BROOM/HOLIDAY @17/07/33

ABANDONED FARM SHOTS...

CREDITS

with interviews of...

Joan Kahl
Yorie Kahl
Lynn Crooks
Toots Mathis
Dennis Fisher
John Noah
Irv Nodland
Bill Kennelly
Prof. Ed Gran
Jack McLamb
Delores Everts
Scarlet Skiftu
Herman Widicker
August Pankow
Victor Seil
Marlys Klimek
Ron Perleberg
Len Martin
Brad Kapp
Robert Holiday
Tom Lee
Ed Fitzpatrick
Gene Nail
Buford Terrell
Marlene Gaysek
Bob Ralston
Darrel Graf
Steve Schnabel
Jack Swan
Loreen Dyck
Lorna/Loreen
Mark Stagg
Sheriff Ray Weatherby
Jack Miller

cinematography

Tracy Adams
Allison Hoffman
Jeffrey F. Jackson

production design

Jim Haddon
Peter Lloyd

film editing

Tracy Adams
Martyn Hone
Jeffrey F. Jackson

original music by

Tracy Adams

sound department

Tracy Adams
Jeffrey F. Jackson

stunts

Rex Reddick

produced by

Jeffrey F. Jackson
Angela Kaye

writing by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

directed by

Jeffrey F. Jackson

CHRONOLOGY

A timeline of the life of Gordon Kahl, from early childhood interests, to his marriage to Joan Kahl, his decorated military experience, his outspoken tax protest, the Medina shootout, and his unusual death in Arkansas in 1983.

REVIEWS

VARIETY / Indie documaker Jeffrey F. Jackson sticks it to the IRS and the Feds in "Death & Taxes," a hard-hitting reinvestigation of the 1983 Gordon Kahl case, about which questions still linger. Jackson's unfazed, investigative reporting-style approach and inventive handling of familiar material make this a controversial item for fests and progressive webs. Non-U.S. viewers will also get a charge out of its conspiracy theme. read more

CHRONICLES MAGAZINE / Gordon Kahl was a simple farmer who became famous for not filing income tax returns. Imprisoned and hounded by IRS agents who never did prove he owed any amount of money, Kahl and his son were involved in a shootout with police. The son is still serving a prison sentence, but the father was surrounded and shot in Arkansas by police officers who mutilated and burned his body. read more

GUNS & AMMO / A new video documentary, Death & Taxes, details a case of government murderously out of control that was briefly mentioned in the October 1994 Guns & Ammo article "The Ugly Truth About Gun Control." Death & Taxes is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer and decorated World War II veteran, and his apparent death at the hands of federal agents. read more