Taos Land & Film Company: Where Taos Land Sales Fund Independent Films

Robert Holiday


17/11 ...well the first contact I had with GK was thru John Noah, who
was our chief ...this would have been the later winter , early spring of
1980...and he transferred him over to me...because it was in my area...so
that was the first contact I had with GK...
18/04 ...the first meeting I had with him, I first recieved the file
from John Noah...didn't really know what to expect, except that John Noah
had described him as being somewhat eccentric in terms of some extrememe
religious beliefs, and a tax protestor...I arranged a home visit...went
out to his farm house and went in to see him, if I remember correctly there
were some family members and other friends there, but, really nothing eventfull...I
found him to be friendly, he was more than willing to talk, to more or less,
mostly interested in trying to explain his beliefs, where he was coming
from and quickly realized that I had no knowledge of his beliefs or where
he was coming from, so he spent considerable time trying to explain his
cause and the types of things that he was interested in...he was not a threatening
individual, physically at all, matter of fact he was quite a small man...a
grandfatherly type of fellow, sitting in a rocking chairand we just sat
and had a nice conversation, coffee and cookies , and the whole thing like
19/48 ...the first time I met with him, to be honest, I did not take
it very seriously or pay a whole lot of attention to what he was saying...we
deal with a whole lot of cases and a lot of different situations and hear
from a lot of different people...but I found it womewhat interesting to
just sit and talk with him...20/16 ... however he made it quite clear when
I would press him about the reason I was there as his probation officer
, that how he was going to be responding to the conditions of his probation
made it quite clear that he was not going to be filing his taxes...but this
was before the April 15, 1980 deadlines so we would just talk about those
type of things...20/41
20/51 ...I just explained to him that if he did not that I had noalternation
to notify the court of his failure to comply with the conditions of his
probation and it would likily result in a hearing or something along those
21/14 ,...I was out to his home twice, to visit personally with him...the
first time I was out was in March of 1980 and the second time I went out
was in April of 1980, immediately after April 15th I just talked to him
again and find out what his intentions were and that type of thing...21/40
21/44 ...he very vehemently and directly said that he was intending to
file and was not going to comply with the conditions of his probation ...21/55
22/08 ...no he did not, there was no indication of violence, there was
no, anything along those lines...it I realized that, the things he were
saying were extreme, especially the second time ...I think by that time
we realized , and had got a little bit more information from the IRS that
, prior to that time we had never heard of posse comitatus, and were not
aware of the beliefs, and the strong beliefs held by GK...
22/50 ...what I felt he was just really trying to get across to me, in
a way, was trying to convert me to his cause...by the method he would go
about explaing where he wa coming from and how he was going to go,...that's
the feeling that I had...a little prosylitizing was going on...umm, he viewed
me as obvioulsy someone who was very ignorant and stupid, to be working
for the fed. govt. because of course his beliefs were very strong that the
govt. was serving satan and communism and all these types of things...so,
he didn't seem particularly afraid of me in a personal way, however he knew
what I represented in terms of probation and US district courts...23/47
23/59...he felt that it was an illegal convicition, he felt that the
laws were illegal, and he felt that his conviction was illegal and mostly
felt that he was following his concious and his particular religiouis beliefs
and could not bring himself to comply with the laws and conditions set by
the court...24/28
24/46 ...umm, I do not remember any specific, but it was more a feeling,
there's a possible potential for violence associated with these types of
people and these types of groups and there was some information filtering
in from other states that similar types of groups had expressed some violence
, if I remember correctly there was some threats made against federal judges
down in texas and there were connections being made through the country
that people were starting to sound the alarm, show some concern as far as
the tax protest groups...25/35...(CUT WITH BUFORD SAYING IRS WAS EDUCATING
26/39... well I realized, especially the second time after I went out,
after april 15 . it was my job to say, Gordon, you have not complied. and
he said yes. and um, I felt some uneasiness at that time because of the
information coming in at that time from other districts. and also because
of some of the rhetoric expressed by GK. and I think I began to realize
the depth of his feelings and how this had really become a strong issue
for him.. so I had some concern the last time I was out there...27/29...
27/47... not that direct, what I asked him to do was to provide us with
a letter, an explanation of what are you intending to do. And the letter
is in the file and he spoke at great length, explaining his belief and toward
the end, said, I'm willing to be a martyr for my cause and I'm not going
to give in and I'm not going to give up...basically whatever happens is
going to happen, and I'm willing to be a martyr. I recieved other information
after the violation reports were filed. He apparently told some law enforcement
people that he was not going to go peacefully and he was indicating that
he was going to resist any attempt to arrest him. But he made no direct
comments to me, other than what was in the letter he wrote to me...
TAPE #16
00/46 ...but he, when he was talking to me he got into that a little
bit...the masons , but, he was looking for the rings and stuff...if he did
ask, I'm not, and it meant nothing to me at the time...again you don't realize...
01/59... no, here's one of his monthly reports that he sent in...he listed
his employer as Jesus Christ, and he claimed to be a bishop in the gospel
doctrine church of Jesus Christ and then he talked to me and then here was
...have you given any thought to become a christian so you can serve christ
rather than Satan, that was the extent of his ...02/23...not the extent,
but the cruxt of his dealings with me, what's a nice young man like you
serving satan for? , don't you see the light, that was the kind of thing
that was going on...02/38...
02/49 ...(DAN BROOM) ...again, in keeping with his thoughts anybody working
for the govt. was working for Satan and was also inserting communism because
of the second plank of the communist manifesto, . In that convoluted way
taht he worked things out, well we really were servants of satan...and I
think that's what made it easier...it's sort of the same thing that we do
when we have a war, (PANS TO HIS FACE) ...we use propaganda, in the way
that I think that he's used it, to further and rationalize our goals...and
to somehow make sub-human the people that we feel are misguided or misdirected...I
think thgat mind set that you see here is what came to fruition on Feb.
13, 1983 at Medina....
3/50 ... this was later on after, more in response to GK's response to
law enforcement saying, I ain't going. ...if you come to get me, you better
be ready ,,,this type of veiled threats and not so veiled threats, so at
this time I was not real comfortable with maintaining it on a probation/supervision
4/41 ...umm, Kahl and his followeres like to say he was put into prison,
he was sent to Springfireld Missouri for medical examination, that was a
medical center and the he was confined at the Leavenworth , but that was
a camp, so he was never in a penitentiary... that was one of his, one of
those emotional kinds of things that he like to play to, that because I
was a tax protestor I was placed in a penitentiry , well, he was never placed
in a penitentiary...he was in a camp and in a medical center ...the medical
center was to have him evaluated...5/23...to see if there was some mental
health issues here, because his views were so radical...and the thinking
was so convoluted...05/34...
06/00...well, what happened was, I submitted the probation violation
report ...and notified the court that Mr. Kahl was not complient with conditions
of his probation and that generated first of all a summons , and they initiated
a probation violation hearing, ...6/26...but then, later on withdrew that,
they basically dropped the charges. (CUT W/PEOPLE SAYING THERE NEVER WAS
A VALID WARRANT) and then indicated they kind of wanted to pick up the
supervision again, but by that time, I had had an opportunity to read the
letter and recognize the veiled threats combined with the problems associated
law enforcement, marshals service that had attempted to serve a summons
on him and he had responded very negatively. (CUT W/JOHN NOAH COMMENTING
ON HIS FEAR) And I was not at all comfortable at that to renew normal probation
supervision, without some clarification from the court and the texas probation
people, ...what do you want from me as far as supervision, what are the
expectations here,...so I was not comfortable until we could get some clarification,
as to what was actually going on...We were here in ND . The case was down
in Texas. So it was just a convoluted time there for a while...I was never
able to initiate a regular superviosion plan of action with him again...7/48...
7/58 ...Most of , after the probation revocation report and petition
was sent to Texas. I closed my interest and sent the file down to Texas...however
they asked that I maintain some courtesy supervision. But, most of the
correspondence was going on beteween tx and Gk directly ...and I was just
kind of on the sidelines, watching and waiting for, to see how this thing
was going to develop and how it was going to end up... that's how I was
from that point on...8/37...
9/13... II knew them both...we worked with them both personallly, Bob
knew Chesire better caus3e in Bismark, I knew Muir because of in Fargo...we
both knew them, I knew Ken pretty well professionally...
9/47 ...that's basically that's true, monitoring or waiting for some
decision to be made or something to happen...so, no I really had no direct
involvement after that, other than with the deputy marshals and their atempts
to...when the warrant came out I worked with them a fair amount because
I had some real concerns. And I told the marshals that, I had some real
concerns. I warned them the best I could to be very careful with this situation,
because I felt it could be very explosive. So, aside from that contact
with the marshals, I had no other contact with GK...10/32
10/48 ,,,I knew it from reviewing the file, and he basically told me
his life story...his belief that he was a real patriotic christian american
and that was part of his credentials, to point out his military service
and that sort of thing....11/11
11/19... I was in my home watching the winds of war on TV.... a little
blurb came across my TV that there had been a shooting near Medina, two
marshals had been shot and a parole violator from texas was a suspect...I
was shocked because of the marshals, but at that point I didn't make a correlation
that it was GK...as a suspect in that becaause there was diffence between
probation and parole, he was not on parole, he was on probation...until
the phone started to ring and a court person had called...and then we realized
what the situation was...12/09...
12/23 ...of course I was very shocked by the bloodshed, the extreme violence,
people killed, shot, that was very shocking to ...however I wasn't particularly
shocked that the circumstance like this happened, because of rhetoric and
what I knew...so I did not particularly shock me that there had been a confrontation...I
was really shocked and horrified to find out the gruesomeness of the killings...13/08...
13/35 ...no, nothing direct I know there is a fair amount of literature
out concerning this thing, putting govt. folks in a bad light but I'm not
14/06 (BITTER HARVEST)...I thought it was exellenct, that it gave a very
good portrayal of how tis type of person can happen...I thought it was quite
14/38 ...I just wasn't aware of his involvment, in terms of being in
a leadersh role...we had no info. about his involvement...to be truthful
I learned a great deal from that book about his leadership and involvement.
but I cna't provide anyting other than that...
15/17 ...DAN= I thought it was a first rate sociological treatise of
the dynamics of how a GK can become such a notorious figure certainly in
ND...they remembger it in much the same way as they remember the assination
of JFK...it's seared in all of our minds because it's so out of the norm
for ND, such heineous violence against law enforement...I thought Mr. Corcoran
did a good job of tracing GK's life , the events in his life and how they
shaped his thinking and attitude and culminated in the tragedy in Medina...I
thought he did an excellent job...16/33... I saw a fair amount of the literature
that was put out by the followeres of GK subsequent to the arrest of the
co-defendants...and it bothered me that by virtue of the fed and local rules,
that the govt. couldn't give it's side of what had gone on...for a while
it was a romanticized GK against the govt., and I think that what's always
bothered me about that is that we are the govt. , we the people, the probation
officers and fed. officers work for the people, the govt. is the people
, so if the people are unhappy about it there's lots they can do about it
without resorting to violence...I never knew GK...but I knew the co-defendants
and I knew...17/20 their feelings of GK...My view of him is that he's articulate
with a very, very plausible explanation for what he's doing and why he's
doing it, which has a certainly amount of appeal for those who are socially
maladjusted or politaclly malcontents...and I think that's why he could
take some poeople like Broer or Faul or his absolute clone was his son Yorie...and
mold those people...17/51... DAN CONT...
and influence them in a way as well as others and he got and had an audience
he might not otherwise have had, because times were real tough in agriculture
at the time, there were a lot of foreclosures under way and so his idea,
heh, it's not you, you're not a poor agri-busniessman, it's the govt. ,
it the manipulation of the markets, it's big business, it's communism...
it's the govt. willingly or unwillingly serving the aims of communism, ...and
he had , he could engender a following that I don't think would have been
there, if things hadn't been so tough at that particular time, for farming,
and this is an agrigarian state...18/28...
19/29... perhpas to the extent that with a better sense of circustances
, maybe a better time and place could have been chosen...by any standard
of serving a warrant, they were performing their duties, they were identified
as law enforcement officers (CUT W/THEY WERE ORDERED TO TAKE THEIR BADGES
10 MINUTE STANDOFF ...I think that beside Kahl, those other people were
there, and you gotta recall that prior to that incident, they had already
gone thru the subtrvuge of changing their clothes and cars, so those were
willing accomplices and they were armed...20/14... and unfortunately they
had more arms than law enforcemtn did...it could have been avoided , I think
, that's almost an irrelevant question becasue they were there exercising
their duties responsibliy, it could have had alot less tragic outcome ...but
whether you're looking back in retrospect , but as bob said he concerns
were starting to grow, and the fact that he talked with the marshals service
and told them to be caregul and the marshal's service had already been out
there once...20/49... and met with him and they kind of knew that this man
was dangerous, I don't tink that by any stretch of the imagination did they
think that they would meet with this kind of fire power and dispersed firepower
that they met with...this tells me that these people were ready, they knew
it was going to happen and it was just a matter of when, they knew the
warrant was out ther and they were prepared...END DAN...SPEECH
21/11... I'd like to build off of what dan said earlier, you've got to
realize you're dealing with ruaral ND... where law enforcement rarely have
to use their weapons, you're not used to that type of resistance, that type
of reaction in any way shape or form...granted I think, hindsight is twenty-twenty...they
thought they were doing the best they could at taht time with the info they
had under the circumstances, who would have thought...21/57,...that you
would have had a military standoff, people assuming positions, and just
a real tragic situation as Dan mentioned earlier, knowing the people made
it that much more difficult for us in working with them on a day to day
basis, being friends with them makes it more difficult for us...22/22 (ISSUE
22/45 ...DAN= He's become larger in death than he was in life, he's
left a legacy , certainly in ND and possibly to militant groups that are
anti-govt. , anti-semetic, anti-whatever, yea, he's got a legacy and a life
there that he doens't deserve...23/11
23/30 DAN= ...John Noah was the chief probation officer at the time and
he retired and I replaced him,...23/45...my role at that time was to write
the presentence report when they were found guilty by a jury...Yori Kahl
would not consent to a presentence interview so I basically based it on
a presentence report on his father and from information Mrs. Kahl provided
me, his mother... so I got to know Scott FAul fairly well, Vernon Wagner
and David Broer, ...24/16 ...and I , the commentary I saw running thru all
their lives, the agraian background, the disaffection with the govt., the
feel that the govt. was intrusive that the govt. was too involved with the
PAY AT THE END OF THE YEAR) ....24/30 ...ah concerns about things like sex
education in school, this is mostly scott faul who I think was, while probably
more friendly, and closer to Yori still looked at Gordon with degree, if
not reverence, then certainly who spoke very elequotly for the types of
beliefs that he had...24/55...uhh, David Broer was sort of the ...intellect
of the group and the one who had a lot of lay training in the law, he was
more much more of a pacifisit in his religious beliefs and as it turned
out at that day in Medina , while he was armed, I don't believe he took
up any arms, but he was involved in some of the changing of cars and clothes
and that sort of thing. 25/22...
...vern wagner, I thought was there more for the excitement and the
pyrotechnics, you know they were talking about where to get some weapons
or where to get some smoke grenades from here, I don't think he was ever
a card=carrying memebers of the posse or as radicalized as some of the others...but
there was these common things, I think they thougth the govt. was intrusive,
real concerned in what was going on in schools, especially in sex education,
I think they were reaal concerned with farm foreclosures...and feeling somewhat,
...they had what I call a victim stance , there wasn't anything wrong
with them, it was the govt. at large, it was the fed govt. it was this great
satanic conspiracy that was driving them to the wall, and whatever they
did in response to this pressure was something brought on them, it wasn't
something they created, it was brought on them...26/26...
26/44 ...that's right , it basically, more often then not...oftentime
the judge doesn't know a lot about the social or biographical info. and
socio-economic, where they were born and raise, army service, where educated,
health, finances those things, the pre-sentence report sort of fleshes that
out and the probation officer is a part of that also give an assessment,
an evaluation and makes a sentencing recommendation/ I might add that my
recollecgtion that there was very little in that presentence report that
was challenged by the defense counsel...27/26...
27/47 ...(GOOD TIGHT EYEBALL SHOT) ...it was rather bland actually ,
it was based on interviews with family members and a presentence report
done earlier on his father in texas, so it certainly the same degree of
first hand information that it would normally have...all the other defendants
were very willing to be interviewed , and when appropriate their spouses...david
broer, his wife in my office, vern wag in his home, they, again in yori's
case, he just wasn't going to talke to me...his attny provided me with some
info...that was helful...28/37...
28/41... an absolute of his dad, just as militant, just as angry, just
as dangerous...28/47...(re:to Yori)
EYES...) ...the recommendaitons are confidential...I think that the courts
primary concern was to hand down sentences that were proportional to the
respective defendents involvmen5ts in the events of that day and to that
extent I think that they did...(CUT W/THE TWO JURORS TALKING ABOUT SENTENCING)...29/18...
29/28 ... I'm kind of rememberin g to Bob's earlier characterization
of GK, Scott was personalbe, fairly young man, for a young man, had a fairly
large family, I think 3 or 4 children...I believe his wife might have been
pregnant at the time...nice family, I remember interviewing his wife...again
to look at him and talk with him, he's not the sort of fellow that you'd
think to find in a criminal court charged with such serious offenses...easy
to talk with...I thought fairly truthful and forthcoming, even to the extent
, when I was getting into the areas of what motivated him that day ...
END TAPE #16:30:00
TAPE # 16:30:30
DAN= ...so he thought that the authorities wer after him becasue of the
truancy charges... scott faul hadn't been sending his children to school,
he was educating them in the home, so he thought the authorities were after
him for some sor of truancy charges...and there had been some sort of incident
donw in Utah where a fellow, his children weren't in school, and he had
got into a conflict with the authorities over that , resulting in this person
being killed...the impression he gave me was that the same fate lay ahead
for him...but, he also conceded that he knew GK was wanted on a warrant
and he also knew they were under surveilance and he was aware of the switching
around went in the cars and the clothing, so he pretty much knew what was
going on, in my view it was a pretty specious explanation...31/29 something
else that really stood out in my mind, I asked him, why did you have that
kind of firepower? Why in the world would you have mini-14 s with clips
and taht, that seems a little excessive, he said, well, driving back and
forth between home and medina they'd shoot rabbilts and coyotes and that's
what they'd feed their dogs, 31/51 ...well, that's not a real common undertaking,
and to me, they were real rationalized explanations of what went on that
day and they just didn't reach the facts of the matter...32/04...
32/15 ... DAN= ...the earliest that they're eligible is ten years, I
think that given the background on the case, what went on, I don't look
for either one of them to be paroled for at least thirty years...interestingly
enough , the parole commission is going out of existence in 1992 and before
they go out of existence for all inmates currently confined they're going
to have to establish presumtive release dates... so about at the latest
of 1992 I will suspect that Yori K and Scott F. will have some idea of what
kind of release dates they're looking at...32/52...
32/58 ...the comprehensive crime cotrol act of 1984...they are required
that within five years that they set presumptive release dates...
34/06 ...well I think they were both involved, ...as I recall it was
generally thought that Yori shot first...and the trailer owners identified
Scott as being right by their trailer... I believe that forensics identified
the bullets from their rifles...Yori was believed to have shot first, course
he went down fairly quickly in that action, I believe that Muir got off
a pitol shot that got Yori in the pistol butt and then I think it was Brad
Kapp that got the shotgun blast off that got him in the stomach and put
him out of the action...Scott was shooting... I think he was identified
as shooting by other people there...I think they were both , from Yori being
the precipatator with Scott joining in once it happened,...
35/31... the people there that were right on the scene or those that
were right in the town that heard it, that were viet nam veterans, said
it sounded just like a fire fight in viet nam...a lot of shooting, quickly
and then it was over...
35/42... I think one of the most chilling things that came out of all
of this, was , the couple that was in the trailer home , the description
of the summarily execution of Bob Chesire by Gordon....36/00...
37/24 ...It doesn't effect us in the same way...doesn't have a titilating
value,,, we see the bizarre routinely...I don't think I'll ever be devoid
of feeling of what went on in Medina...that I cannot sense the tragedy across
the board...for all the families involved, not just the federal officers...the
state officers, but for the other families involved....to some extent to
use a biblical quote, the sins of the fathers are going to be visited on
the sons. and I'm talking of scott faul's children, be without a father,
bob chesire's children will be without a father...Ken Muir's grandchildren
and children...just a trememdous tragedy...38/32...
38/43 ... I think just to say that he was an empty intellectual , he
fancied himself as some sort of a lay lawyer type guy, the kind of guy who
would read for a law degree and then be allowed to practise, ...I sensed
that he was more of a pseudo-intellect...I don't thiknn there was any depth
to his intellect...but kind of place where you use a few llegal terms and
you get some defference paid...he could talk the talk...I dohnt' think there
any intellectual depth to Broer, he was a craftsman by trade...and I like
to think ...he may have, he carried a collapsible stock shotgun and so he
banished the armerment like the others did, and I think he articulated the
rhetoric, but when the moment came he didn't do anythinkg...and to that
extent I don't think his committment was really as great as the others invovled
that day...39/56... and thank god they weren't cause I'm not sure we wouldn't
have had a worse blood bath than we did...he was a family man, I think it
was a family that was close,...his wife was very close during this time...he
may be off parole at this time...I didn't see him as being as big of a player
or as strongly held in his beliefs... certainly to the point of taking it
to violence that day as the others...40/33...
41/04 ...again I did the presentence,...Vernon wagner was what I called
a groupie...he might have been prosylitized...he didn't have the furvor...proabably
fascinated by some sort of little militant cell operating out there in the
middle of the state, carrying weapons around..I don't see him as being any
sort of a strong follower...and I think he pretty much boke off from that...he
voluntarily surrendered...43/06...
42/49... what you're asking is two quesitons, we in ND are not used to
this kind of violence...it's just so totally alien for us here, and to the
extent maybe that was the achilles heels that day for the marshals, yes,
Ken Muir was no novice at law enforcement...he 'd done a lot of work, he
was a skilled pistol shooter...I think if anything our complancyi got us
in trouble that day...to me it doesn't matter...a lot of people say, gee
it was just a misdemeanor, was it worth that? ...44/05 ...well, if you're
going to have laws and you'r going to enforce them then and you're going
to have nay integrety in the system then you've got to enforce them...I
don't see any difference.. I think the publice has this idea, the mystic
of the fed marshal, and it's a sort of romanticists things...a law enforcement
officer doing his duty is a man that's worthy of the community respoect...44/56...
45/20 ...(BOB, WHO'S THE ACTOR TO PLAY YOU?) .... that's a really difficult
question...James ARness....I've always been a gunsmoke fan,,, a similar
46/41 ... there was a fair amount of it going thru at the time, we had
other pople that were invovled in the tax protest movement, some we believed
had some posse comitatus affiliation or at least identifying with them...there
was a time when some things were going on over in Wisconsin...
47/10 ...I think it was almost as if it was, one of those things where
the events....Gokrdon was building towards taht day, it took a real devastiated
farm economby, some real disaffected people, even the average person today
has some concerns, we just went thru this big budget hassle and are we going
to raise taxes or not? and everybody politically distances themselve...I
think there's a lot of anitipayhty in america at large over taxation and
probably a large audience that would say heh, I'd like to keep more of my
earning for myself, but they wouldn't take up arm.s...against their govt.
to protest it in that manner...I think it was the extraodinary lengths that
Gjordon went to the fact that he was anble to engender a following not necessary
because of his views, but because when pepole are unhappy and they feel
like they're being victimized, it is easier, to internalize belief system.s
or they reationlize... I'ma god fearing military man ...twice decorated,
it's not me, it's what you guys are going to me and what bob represented
in a fed. official...48/37...
48/41... no, iin fact I'm a christian, ...I am too...BOB= building off
what dan said, I think it was the circumstances, back in the early eighties,
the farm crisis was so great, as Corcoran's book bitter Harvest, exactly
what was going on, the atmosphere was so great for building hatred against
the govt., the anger and hatred against the banks, against the govt....all
thes types of things...I , it was just an unfortuante set of cicumstances,
a great tragedy for those on both sides... anywayere in the country, a...rural
area..devoid of this type of thing happening...affected so many lives...49/59...
52/07 ...I don't know what else in the file you might be interesteed
in, the rest was just court records...
53/23... one thing we always kind of had a quiestion about, as far as
donw in texas, what motivated them to drop the charge the first time , they
withdrew the charge the first time??? And it kind of went back, in my opinon,
it created a situation that could have embolden Gordon Kahl and I believe
that was pointed out in the book. ... Embolden him to bleive that nobody's
going to do anything to me...I can just do whatever I want...I'd be interested
in finding that out myself, just find out why they pulled back and dind't
pursue it.....
54/21 ...right, right, I don't know if it got to a warrant or a summons
to start with,,, but we weren't involved iwth it... there was a lengthy
period of time where is was back and forth...I think Jim comvered it in
his book...???
55/18...I never really knew that, I know the marshals were a little relunctant
becasue of the mideamnor status and the pltential for violence. ...as Dan
said one nation of laws , you can't pick which law to enforce and which
56/01...DAN OFF CAMERA TALKING ABOUT THE WARRANT... the chronology in
response to a letter that bob sent down that Gahl was not going to comply
and they at that time, He put a petition together asking for court action...
and that was court authorized...the court signed off on that, I don't remember
whether it was a summons or a warrant, but subsequently that was quashed,
that's the legal word for dismissed. And a letter went out from Swan to
Kahl saying it's been dismissed and we hope that you'll cooperate or whatever,
...after that happened, when he still didn't comply, and he wasn't , and
it probably was clear to them from the day they sent it that he wasn't.
Then there was a new petition alleging violation of probation executed
and a warrant was requested, and that's the one, essentially the second
one that the attempt was made to serve on february 13... (JJ "AND YOU
57/13...the first one, and the length, the time frame involved there,
I think, I understand like what Dan has just said, is what happened, because
then it came back, that's how my name came in it, because my name was used
on the probation violation petition alleging that GK had not been submitting
his monthly reports...and I think what had happened is texas had attempted
to initaite some dialog . To try to get some communicaton or something going,
and it just wasn't working out, so they made a decison to do it again...but
as I mentioned earlier, I felt a little in the dark here in ND as to what
was going on down in texas...58/22 ...cause he was so obvious in violation
and he was that was his stand, he said I'm not going to do it! And it was
almost, okay, I've done my part now it's up to you to do your part...although
I don't, I belieive in my heart that he was not intending for it to end
up the way it did, I really do. In my heart Ibelieve that...I did not intend
for that for that type of violence to occur or ...58/54... (BOB IS EXPRESSING
REMORSE) DAN CHIMES IN OFF CAMERA...the probation officer has a statutory
duty to keep the court informed as to the conduct and behavior of a probationer
and to enforce conditions, in this case there was a special condition ,
saying that he would file a return...(WHICH REMINDS ME, NOBODY HAS MENTIONED
GROUPS THAT ADVOCATE ...) ...59/11...
...so he was in obvious violation, Bob has a statutaory, ministerial
duty to enforce that condition. and thats, you can see GK knew from the
day the sentence was pronounced , in the one count he was sent off to the
camp, that it was going to escalate. That he was going to be held accountable,
that there would be consequences for his failure. Now maybe that put him
into a difficult , if not irreconciliable position because he says, I'm
going to be held accountable...and I'm not going to comply with the courts
conditions...so we were on an irreversible course...given that kind of thinking
that he had (FREEDOM OF SPEECH ISSUE)...59/56...AND THAT HE Was a North
Dakotian, that had been living down in Texas and had been adjudicated down
there and had decided to come back to ND is how we got involved to begin
with...the jurisdiction was never transferred up here...
ENDS @17/03/00apx

TAPE #17
02/11... Gordon's just been consistenct all the way thru...he's consistant...he's
said what he believes...have you talked to Yorie...?
3/47 ...I can never remember, if Yorie was there one of the times when
I was there, ...I think a daught was there...
4/10 ...I saw some material that said I was out there and I was scared
to death... 5/50...this diatribe was strange...
with interviews of...
Joan Kahl
Yorie Kahl
Lynn Crooks
Toots Mathis
Dennis Fisher
John Noah
Irv Nodland
Bill Kennelly
Prof. Ed Gran
Jack McLamb
Delores Everts
Scarlet Skiftu
Herman Widicker
August Pankow
Victor Seil
Marlys Klimek
Ron Perleberg
Len Martin
Brad Kapp
Robert Holiday
Tom Lee
Ed Fitzpatrick
Gene Nail
Buford Terrell
Marlene Gaysek
Bob Ralston
Darrel Graf
Steve Schnabel
Jack Swan
Loreen Dyck
Mark Stagg
Sheriff Ray Weatherby
Jack Miller
Tracy Adams
Allison Hoffman
Jeffrey F. Jackson
production design
Jim Haddon
Peter Lloyd
film editing
Tracy Adams
Martyn Hone
Jeffrey F. Jackson
original music by
Tracy Adams
sound department
Tracy Adams
Jeffrey F. Jackson
Rex Reddick
produced by
Jeffrey F. Jackson
Angela Kaye
writing by
Jeffrey F. Jackson
directed by
Jeffrey F. Jackson
A timeline of the life of Gordon Kahl, from early childhood interests, to his marriage to Joan Kahl, his decorated military experience, his outspoken tax protest, the Medina shootout, and his unusual death in Arkansas in 1983.
VARIETY /   Indie documaker Jeffrey F. Jackson sticks it to the IRS and the Feds in "Death & Taxes," a hard-hitting reinvestigation of the 1983 Gordon Kahl case, about which questions still linger. Jackson's unfazed, investigative reporting-style approach and inventive handling of familiar material make this a controversial item for fests and progressive webs. Non-U.S. viewers will also get a charge out of its conspiracy theme. read more
CHRONICLES MAGAZINE /   Gordon Kahl was a simple farmer who became famous for not filing income tax returns. Imprisoned and hounded by IRS agents who never did prove he owed any amount of money, Kahl and his son were involved in a shootout with police. The son is still serving a prison sentence, but the father was surrounded and shot in Arkansas by police officers who mutilated and burned his body. read more
GUNS & AMMO /   A new video documentary, Death & Taxes, details a case of government murderously out of control that was briefly mentioned in the October 1994 Guns & Ammo article "The Ugly Truth About Gun Control." Death & Taxes is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer and decorated World War II veteran, and his apparent death at the hands of federal agents. read more
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Death & Taxes (DVD)
First time on DVD (113 min)
Death & Taxes (VHS)
This is a limited edition collector's VHS in the original unbroken packaging. (113 min)
Death & Taxes Miniseries (DVD)
Set of 6 DVD's comprising the complete uncut footage from the documentary film project. (783 min)
Gordon Kahl: Godfather of the militia movement
Now Available!
This set of 6 DVD's comprises over 13 hours of uncut footage, including a 2+ hour prison interview with Yorie Kahl, and candid interviews with wife Joan Kahl. In this rich stockpile of research, you'll find many more threads than could reasonably be pursued in the final feature.
The Death & Taxes Miniseries DVD Set Includes...
01: Gordon Kahl Meets With Head North Dakota U.S. Marshal Bud Warren (60 min)
02: The Beginning: Gordon Kahl's military experience and views on a variety of subjects (93 min)
03: Gordon's Texas Tax Trial (90 min)
04: Medina Shootout (60 min)
05: Gordon Kahl Was...: A montage of over 25 people describing who Gordon Kahl was in their eyes. (50 min)
06: Mysterious Death In Arkansas (90 min)
07: Media Circus: Chronological portrayal of Gordon Kahl in the media (70 min)
08: Yorie Kahl Prison Interview (150 min)
09: Joan Kahl Uncut Interviews (120 min)
The connection between Gordon Kahl, Timothy McVeigh, and the Oklahoma City Bombing
A little-known fact regarding Death & Taxes is the surprising connection to Timothy McVeigh and the ATF / Oklahoma City Bombing. Here's a clip of Jackson sharing the story during a director's commentary on his film Postal Worker.
Manhunt in the Dakotas
The story of Gordon Kahl so captured the attention of mainstream America that it was turned into a highly-rated made-for-television movie titled In The Line of Duty - Manhunt In The Dakotas.

DEATH & TAXES is the story of Gordon Kahl, a North Dakota farmer who became America's "most-wanted" fugitive. How had a WWII war hero become the target of one of the largest manhunts in FBI history? Gordon Kahl U.S. Marshalls Most Wanted Fugitive
Gordon Kahl's charred and burned remains were reexamined after his exhumation. The island of unburned skin shows that Kahl's body was likely positioned against the floor at the time he was set on fire.
The badly burned remains of Gordon Kahl, with an island of skin that shows he was in a prone position at the time of the fire.
Was Kahl a racist, gun-toting fanatic? Or a victim of an IRS policy of harassing vocal tax protestors into silence to keep the rest of us intimidated? Did Bill Clinton conspire to cover-up the torture and execution of Gordon Kahl in Arkansas? Did federal agents mutilate and burn the body to cover-up the murder of the wrong man?
DEATH & TAXES follows the trail of Gordon Kahl as his body is exhumed for a new autopsy. Building on newsreel clips covering two fiery shootouts and hundreds of interviews -- with IRS agents and federal prosecutors as well as Kahl's family and supporters -- D&T explores the myths and controversies surrounding a man who dared to challenge the federal income tax system. Some revile Kahl as a cop killer. Others revere him as an American patriot. Which was he?